music practice - do you have to nag?

I'm interested several people have made the comparison with routine and brushing your teeth - DS1(8) decided that he would do his guitar practice after brushing his teeth in the morning. It's working really well. We don't need to nag or even remind him and he does it every morning without fail. He only does 5 minutes on a school day, because that's all there's time for, and he's only just started playing but he's making huge progress on that.

I'm astonished because I learned several instruments for years (and got to high grades) but never practised regularly except when I had an exam or a solo coming up. I was dreading what I thought was the inevitable nagging and cajoling to get him to practice. But now, inspired by him I've started doing piano practice myself every evening straight after putting the kids to bed and what do you know? I'm getting much better! (Although I'm still pretty rubbish - what do you know, at 43 I don't learn as fast as an 8 year old!)

I think it's partly down to DS1's personality - he's a methodical kind of child who likes routine and predictability and the fact that he worked out the best time to do it makes him feel it's his choice. But I think it also helps that we explained when he started that there was a direct relationship between practice and how good you get - the more you practice, the better you get (broadly, obviously not if you are 'messing around' the whole time as JMF said above) and the better you get the nicer sounds you make and the more satisfying it is. I'm not sure anybody ever explained that to me when I was a child, so I just thought of practice as something you had to do because your teacher and parents told you to. I wish they had!

lent

What am I hearing this week at home...

DS2, 11, is getting used to a new clarinet he has been leant, and has been playing various things from books, plus a new scale he has just been taught, piano has been structured practise plus Blueberry Hill and some jazz, not heard trombone this week, but the theory has been out.

DDs sax has not been heard, she has been picking out tunes on the piano for herself.

DS1 has his trombone and tuba out earlier, not sure what he was playing. We've been away for 2 weeks so needs to get his lip back in.

Not exam based here although all 3 do exams on some of their instruments. But not rigidly marching through the grades

I think that a major problem with practise is that many children simply do not know how to do it effectively. It needs to be quite well structured for them. Talk to their teacher or even look online for what effective practise entails. My other titbits are:

• routine, routine, routine - set aside the same time everyday so it is as much a habit as brushing their teeth
• children under eight and perhaps older need to be supervised during their practiseso expect to give up your time to get them started
• instruments which are left out, get picked up and played more so think about investing in an instrument stand
• ensembles and orchestras are fantastic - nothing persuades like peers. Try something beyond just what the school offers
• for older children discuss the "10k hours to expert". It might just be a theory, but it helps frame that 20mins a week with their teacher will not make them worth listening to.

DD1 isn't naturally particularly musical - she'd be the first to say it - but works her socks off. All she wanted to achieve was a decent enough Grade 5 (piano) so that GCSE Music was doable, and she's got there without me once ever having to tell her to practise.

Now the exam is out of the way, she's treating me daily, after all her scales, sight reading etc, to selections from Les Mis, the Harry Potter soundtrack, and the theme to Murder She Wrote. She does about 45 minutes to an hour, plus theory revision daily.

I am not entirely sure where her work ethic comes from, given that I hold advanced qualifications in Procrastination and Displacement Activities. However her teacher is fabulous, and her GCSE teacher at school equally lovely and inspiring.

I think (touch wood) we may have turned the corner and established the importance of practice, I've recently seen the signs of focussed work, proper practice rather than playing it through and glossing over the wobbly bits. Mine is 14 now, at 8 and 9 I needed to be the practice reminder, he always intended to do it, not now but "later" and then at five to bed time it would be too late.

Last week and the week before I barely saw him, it was a residential music week followed by day attendance at another course. What do we have this week - yesterday was some random bits from a book of graded pieces for trombone, it's the first time he's played it in a year and it was surprisingly good after the first five minutes. I asked him whether he would want to do exams on it (phrased so as to suggest "no") and yes he does. We also had my favourite piece at the moment, the Benedictus from The Armed Man.

Janet41 my son has avoided scales all the way through exams, with Trinity you can chose to do exercises rather than scales and for those you can use the book. He was told that sooner or later this would bite him, once he started to audition for things he needed them and there was no way around it. It was surprising how he knuckled down and learned them once he found a need for them.

Dd currently on music course, but otherwise we have Frozen on the clarinet, and lots of cello stuff from whatever book her teacher has told her not to venture into yet :( not heard too many scales this holiday ..... Dd plays a lot of music from morning to night, but def needs nagging to 'practice' unless she has an exam approaching. I am not sure that is so unusual? Or does a truely musical child really practice scales constantly without being reminded?

We have Charlie Parker Omnibook and the real books for saxophone, some standards and a bit of mainstream.

Sax duets with either flute, alto/tenor sax or clarinet.

Violin duets with flute, clar, alto/tenor.

Singing Disney Princess songs, Green linnet thingy? from Sweeney Todd, Lascia Ch'io Pianga Handel, There are fairies at the bottom of the garden,

Piano. Boogie Woogie Hannon and comping to favourite tunes.

"what are you hearing at home this week"

Eldest mucking around with a songs from the shows book (singing and playing).... DS sonata pathetique slow movement and scenes from child hood. Youngest - nothing!

But they all recordered/sang loads last week/weekend and last night with the WW1 stuff.

I distinguish between practise and mucking around on the instrument, fwiw.

Don't know what's been going on with the students apart from my youngest two violinists... One has been playing "Halloween" from Red Parrot Green Parrot endlessly, working out tunes from Frozen and composing her own tunes. The other has been composing as well and also still practising because she's having a few extra lessons over the holidays.

As far as I can tell, the rest will be taking a break or mucking around except for one teenaged lad who has grade 3 piano coming up and will know his scales by September... but I hope there's some practise going on as we have festival in November to aim at, including two young neighbours doing a piano duet from "The Four Handed Keyboard Crocodile".

As you can tell, I like silly books :p

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Myself, I've had a few gigs (various instruments), done some busking, have project orchestra all this week for a concert on Sat and then I'm on a harp course next week. And I'm hoping to do some pedagogical training.

Oh, cello is getting better, tuning on this video is horrific, though tone is better, but I was sightreading in tenor clef and it's instrument #9 :p
www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152171901832143&l=153390463303053910

Most, I don't think people on this thread are talking much about exams. I don't really care about them but I do care about her musical development. To get to the point where it is an enjoyable activity, there needs to be practice. Nothing is fun until you're good at it.

I don't see how practising makes music less of a hobby and more of a chore. Practice is necessary to be any kind of musician.

Thank you Julie my dd is now officially weird
No, I agree she is freakish as she has never had to be reminded to practice let alone nagged or bribed.

I do think a certain amount of cajoling or reminders can be needed when dc are younger, my comments above were more to do with dcwho are constantly having to be nagged.

We have 2 much older dc who must have tried every instrument going and just weren't interested really when push came to shove.

They practised ok and had lessons but when it came to the stage of having to nag I wasn't prepared to do it as I know they'd have hated me for it when they were older.

I think when they get to the age where they realise that they need to practice to progress any further, and they can't do this then all the nagging in the world will make them do it for you, not them.

I make sure that for all my pupils (including DD1) at least 90% of what we do is unrelated to exams. Earlier in the year, she was invited to play at the local farmers' market, in town by the local radio station who heard her, and then at a school fete (not our school). This is her favourite kind of thing to do! But she also plays in her school orchestra, advanced recorder ensemble, helps to teach the little ones, and likes to do festivals when the opportunity arises.

What is everyone hearing at home this week? From DD1 we have:
Flute - lots of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Disney, some scales, old pieces
Recorder - a Gavotte, Hornpipe and a jazzy thing called Boogaloo Bunny!

DD2:
Recorder - Nellie the Elephant, Scarborough Fair, What shall we do with a drunken sailor, and... her own improvisations. Lovely!
Cello - Hot Cross Buns, Twinkle Twinkle, a few easy pieces with CD, scales in interesting rhythms (Apple Pie and Custard/ Cold Cup of Tea/ Fish and Chips)!

So few children seem to get the opportunity to play purely for pleasure, without having to learn for exams.
I started playing at 5-6yrs old, started lessons at 9ish, stopped lessons at 17 and apart from a couple of grades that I took around 10-11, everything else was just about playing. I was in the school orchestra and I loved it, but it was (and still is) a hobby. It does seem a shame that so few kids get to have playing an instrument as a hobby.
I remember playing as a stress reliever when I was revising for exams (not music). I don't think it could have been if it was another subject that I was studying.

I think 8 and 9 are still quite young and most need nagging support to practise. Also, if the child is learning a particularly difficult instrument, like violin, it takes a long, frustrating time to get good at it, and it seems unreasonable to me to expect a child to just persevere without parental presence.

It's great that some MNers have DCs that just get on with it, but I think that's unusual. However, by 10 I would expect them to practise independently.

Theas it's the flute she'll need it for, so as long as we keep the theory a grade below her flute level, there won't be a big problem later on. I'm not even sure what her next flute grade will be, because we miss them out here and there. She likes to do every single one, but I could tell that Grade 3 flute was going to be a big waste of money, as she was sailing straight past that level. DD1, her teacher and I decide between us which ones are going to be helpful to motivate/ help her improve. We won't do all the theory grades either.

Recorder is with Trinity, so she'll just do it whenever. I thought it would take a couple of years from Grades 5 to 6, which doesn't seem to be uncommon, but it might be a little bit less. Fortunately we won't need to Grade 5 Theory beforehand.

Flute teacher is working on Practical Musicianship, in case that gets there sooner than the theory. It won't hurt her to get both ultimately!

I had to be reminded... and sometimes nagged. It's normal to go through phases. In fact, I very nearly quit altogether at various points.

Under 8, I'd say parents probably need to even help with practise (depends on child).

Under 11, children will definitely need reminding unless they're super-organised and weird ;-)

Over 11... it'll be on and off as priorities change. Little and often is my recommendation (all my current students are relative beginners, if an 11yo is grade 6 that's be a different matter).

I try to be very concise and specific with practise instructions for my students - you can make more progress in 15min of real practise than in an hour of mucking about. "If you need to practise more than five hours a day, you're doing something wrong..." :p

And yep, teaching is my "practise" too, though it's done my bowhold wonders, having to demonstrate it correctly all the time!

Wafflenose, can I just ask who wants her to do the exams? She could happily work at grade 6 standard.... then grade 7 and maybe just take grade 8 in a couple of years when her theory catches up.

She might actually decide herself she wants the certificate and nice review before then and realise that she has to get on with the theory to do it. She's so young really.

Unless having the actual certificates is going to matter to what she does?

At 8-9 yes.... I think we did have to cajole/organise them yes.

As they get older it gets easier - as has been said many times , playing in groups is great and they don't know it's also " practice" of sorts.

Beyond 11-12 yrs though we didn't nag much and some practice happened. Again, I've said before, exams aren't vital and sometimes are detrimental. Progress is still made and enjoyment had. They've all been grade 8+ in 2-3 instruments on leaving school and are not heading for music careers so it doesn't matter (though why DS, are you not... having heard you play in the summer you'd be grand and less stressed!)

yep. we nag ours all the time!!!! I find bribery works too!!

But at age 44 I find I don't have to nag dh (!!). I use teaching as my practice these days (lame).

I have to remind but not nag. DS is 8.

We have been through phases of nagging, but not lately. DD1 has to be told, and sometimes grumbles, but gets on with it and enjoys it once she starts. Sometimes I have to remind DD2, but she says "OK then!" and does it without any fuss.

Biggest issue at the moment is DD1's theory. She does moan and throw strops, but now knows this is her last crack at it before she gets way behind. She is working towards Grade 6 Recorder and Grade 4 Flute, and we are only on the Grade 2 Theory book.

I dont have a problem about pass exam if the lessions are a lot cheaper. DDS do other things too like girls and gymnastc. These are a lot cheaper so I don't have a problem how long it may take for next badge or anything.

I'm the same as wootoodoo too.

Dd1 asked to learn to play an instrument. I said I wasn't bothered about her learning, but I wasn't prepared to pay for lessons if she wasn't prepared to practice. That would just be wasting my money.

So we agreed she could learn if she practised every day. She agreed, and she practises every weekday morning once she's ready for school. Occasionally I have to ask if she's done it (esp dd2 who us more of a faffer) but I never have to nag.

Same as wotoodoo. DD comes straight home from lessons and practices. Practices every day, and she enjoys it. I have never timed her, or asked her to play. She simply loves it.

I have no musical ability at all, nor does DH. No idea where this kid came from! But it's wonderful to see her take such pleasure from it.