Feeling fed up... Why bother learning an instrument in ptimary school to drop it in year 7?

If any parent here is looking for a way for their child to learn a musical instrument cheaply, they may be interested in what I've found out today.

Further upthread, a poster gave me the idea of having another bash at learning an instrument, following bad experiences at school in the 70s. I've contacted a school for Irish music (the Comhaltas) that's in my city. There are a number of branches around the country - you can find them on this map:

comhaltas.ie/locations/ (click the right arrow on the map to move over to the UK from Ireland!)

The local Comhaltas member I emailed told me: "We meet on Weds evening once a week. Adults/children are taught in small groups in the various corners of the club. There's then an adult's and a children's 'session' for all instrument learners to play together for an hour at the end."

"If you want individual lessons, as a rough guide, most adults pay £3 to £5 for a 30 minute lesson and I think the little ones pay a bit less. If you find that you want to have lessons we do encourage people to join the Comhaltas organization:-cost £8 per year for an adult and £4 for children or £14 for family membership." Comhaltas says it can offer much cheaper music lessons than normal Musicians Union rates (normally £25-£30 per hour) because they have the back-up of being an international organisation

Cost of instruments: the one I'm interested in, (the Uilleann pipes), is pretty expensive - £400 for a set of practice pipes! So I'm going to start with the tin whistle - similar to a recorder, not too difficult to learn to play some jolly tunes on, and can be played in groups with other people/instruments. And tin whistles are as cheap as chips (like, £5.99). So that's me sorted!

Comhaltas also teaches fiddle, concertina, button accordion, harp, banjo and bodhran (Irish hand drum), and can put you in touch with teachers of other instruments.

So it's not classical/orchestral, but it's a cheaper way for the cash-strapped who just want to enjoy making music.

I think too many people are not that bothered about whether their child learns an instrument or not and plenty of people are not home from work in time to supervise practice. Therefore the impetus to learn fades. There has been very little mention here of singing. No instrument to buy! My DDs love singing and have gained huge amounts from being in choirs at school and now university. DD1 also did music theory to get extra UCAS points. She had piano and violin lessons too but it is the singing that continues to give her the most pleasure. I think persevering with something hard shows universities and employers that you have determination, have the discipline to attend practice and rehearsals and shows you can work with other people. This is another reason why privately educated children get to the best universities. Music is strong in many private schools where lots of children play and sing and it is absolutely not mocked! Just look at the 800 boys at Harrow on the tv the other night - every one of them singing !

That's a lot of extra work! I suppose that £3,000 per year isn't really excessive given the major impact on her life.

Well on the day she goes to the conservatoire she is there all day, from 9:30 til 3:30, sometimes even 4pm.
She practises every day, some days a couple of hours, some days an hour, depending on homework, etc...she is 8.

Thank you musicalfamily. How many hours a week total (including practice) does your DD spend on music?

DS did this. He did cornet/trumpet till the end of Y6 (and got his grade 1!!!) and then dropped it when he moved to secondary, despite them having a fantastic music department.

He is not at all naturally musical. However, he is a natural sportsman, so he wanted to focus on that. He would have driven the music teacher mad

PS before even auditioning her I checked out a number of other junior conservatoires and they were very similar both in price and what they offered!!

Bonsoir my DD1 gets (roughly):

• 1 hour violin
• 45 minutes piano
• theory class (max 5 kids)
• composition (includes use of technology, etc)
• ensemble
• singing

From another angle, how easy is it for children at your school to have lessons? Ds1 is a 12 year old who plays a large brass instrument. He also sings in a choir, plays in the rugby, hockey and cricket teams, and is in 3 other school clubs.

Most of his friends do sport, only one or two do music as well. Ds isn't the most organised of 12 year olds, but usually does fine in most things. However getting to grips with music lessons which rotate round the timetable, together with the need to get signed out of lessons in advance, and getting the work copied up and prep done has turned music into THE most stressful part of his secondary school experience. And that is before fitting in the music practice itself. I have tried to explain to the Head of Music that ds1 can only get into trouble for doing music (because he forgets to get his card signed/actually go to the lesson so gets detentions as well), which isn't the case for sport etc. With hindsight his start to secondary would have been a LOT smoother if he had stopped his instrument in Year 7.

Ds2 is in year 6, prepping for entrance exams whilst keeping up his brass instrument, singing lessons and percussion. It is hard trying to fit all of this into a week, though at present he doesn't get a detention if he fails to get himself signed out etc. But if he follows ds1 to senior school then I am not sure that I will necessarily want him taking lessons at school.

if you cannot get any Kind of orchestra together or even much in the way of ensembles and yet the dept finances itself largely through concerts, it is a difficult situation. Perhaps if you did mostly film music, you could include a lot of guitars and be a bit of an unorthodox orchestra. Not sure how that would work but I suppose if they were doing mostly chords and you had some drums, it might work, would depend what other instruments you had. Perhaps even some of the teachers could join in to swell the ranks.

For the parents of DC at Junior Conservatoire - what do you get for £ 3,000 ( or whatever) per year?

DD and DS have both given up lessons at secondary. DS had them for his first year, but then the clarinet teacher left. He found missing a different lesson each week disruptive so we didn't actively find another clarinet teacher at school, and frankly he life is very busy and expensive with other hobbies and clubs after school to fit in and find the money for another club. If he dropped a couple of things it might be possible. But, he does regularly play - he attends wind band (is the only clarinet!!) and takes his clarinet to play in school musoc lessons too. If he chooses music GCSE he will have to start learning again, but at the moment all he wants to do is play with other people.

DD had flute lessons all teh way through junior school, but as homework and other clubs increased it was a complete battle to get her to practise, and frankly her dancing lessons are so expensive that we decided taht if she would not commit to practising withh=out nagging the flute lessons would stop. She has however joined wind band and flute choir to play with others, and has come home with the flute teacher's email address and phone number...

ok my kids won't get technically better through playing with other people, but that is the bit they enjoy, not playing on their own or taking exams. They are both of a standard where they can participate, and crucially both have their own instruments - I deliberately guided them into choosing instruments we had already in the family.

I can understamd it must be soul destroying for you, but there are so many clubs out there for our kids ot take part in, and they only have so much time. DS is just more interested in STEM, and DD is more interested in dancing, and this is where they do put hours of effort.

When we were in Germany where we lived they offered weekend workshops a couple of times a year for strings players with a mixture of classical and film music. These were for the very young beginners through to maybe age 14, and as the children were grouped according to ability, they could accommodate all levels. So starting Friday night, all day Saturday, rehearsal and concert (tutti)on Sunday. They only charged about 15 quid and the idea was to catch children at that 'critical age' before they drop their instruments. Maybe if you could offer something like that held in the secondary school for dc who have not yet completed primary, it might help.

Another thing some schools did there was allow dc from other schools to participate in their big bands, orchestras and ensembles so you would get motivated and accomplished dc from other schools playing in the ensembles of schools other than their own. My dd who was at primary was allowed to play violin in two secondary school orchestras and had a great time, learnt a lot. Each orchestra would have 2-3 weekends a year extra practice and a yearly residential. So sociable and also musically challenging enough to keep up interest.

I so agree about the importance of music if you have a talent, eldest DD did recorder at primary, and piano outside of school, but didn't take any grade exams as she suffered from nerves too badly. In senior school she joined choir and her group of friends were musical so she took up a brass instrument and started to do her exams in both instruments. She now has confidence plays in all the school ensembles including solo on her 3rd instrument (percussion) has an A grade GCSE. I am sure that developing her love of music and being able to perform enabled her to do well across all her exams.
I'm tone deaf and can't okay anything.

It is just sooo expensive. My dd is desperate to learn an instrument but we simply can't afford to put another child through lessons. She is older and never have the opportunity to trial anything when she was in primary. I have tried to encourage her to learn with the Girls brigade band, or offered to teach her woodwind myself but she is suffering from the Cowell affect and only wants to learn guitar which is £15 ph.

DT1 is learning violin, and it costs so much!! He is only learning it because he started on the free trial, then subsidised lessons and after all that I couldn't really turn around and tell him he couldn't continue, so now we are stuck with the bill. This year both dts get to learn the clarinet at school for free and I am dreading dt2 wanting to continue it as we simply can't afford it. Apparently so far he is struggling a bit to produce a note and I am secretly relieved. Although I can play clarinet and could teach him myself to at least grade 4 level then maybe do lessons.

I agree that money is a reality that cannot be overlooked.

I am currently paying way over 3k for my DD1 at junior conservatoire, plus £50 x week for the other children's music lessons on top. And that's without books, petrol to get them there and back, instruments to buy, etc..

We can only afford it because I work, if for whatever reason I didn't work full time there is no way we could afford it and they would have to stop learning. It would be a massive shame, but I don't believe there would be any other choice..

I also agree that many kids have lots of activities in primary school that all start out as an hour or two once a week. By the end of primary school they find that their activities require a lot more time and commitment. They have to start making choices about which activities they are serious about and drop the rest.

I think that the culture in the secondary school really makes a big difference. I know 3 comps round here - two of which with really thriving orchestra's and lots of music groups for all sorts of interests. The third school seems to have no interest in music whatsoever - even though I'm sure the music department would disagree.

dd is a musician even though we arent and goes to a comp. Her school have got a really thriving huge musical community and its a major part of her school social life. The headteacher plays an instrument and joins in as do many of the teachers. She gains so much out of it socially, so whilst practising scales is a chore - the rest of it is fun.

Well my dh must teach at some odd private schools as no way do the majority of year 7s learn an instrument. He teaches at 5 private schools 4 senior, 1 prep. Prep school is a choir school, yet ironically is very obstructive in actually letting the children have music lessons! Dh has to try and timetable lessons in break, lunch time, can't miss PE..... At one school they have introduced a scheme where every child gets a couple of free lessons on an instrument to try and build the numbers up.

He has had pupils drop out because they can't afford the lessons. Parents are already scraping together to pay the school fees and just can't do the lessons on top. Bit of a cheek when they tell dh the lesson fees are too high.

He taught at a very rough comp many years ago. One of his pupils was very disruptive in class, frequently excluded etc.. He was an angel in his trumpet lesson. It was the only time the boy got any one to one time. He was eventually expelled. Music lessons can be important to some children for the individual attention not for the music!

In one area of the North East there are loads of secondary age musicians. Especially brass. In the schools music service they have the regional orchestra (at least 100kids) then a wind orchestra (another 30 kids) the brass band, - similar number, then they have the local orchestras as well.
This is not counting the choirs and students who have lessons but don't come along to orchestras.

I think it depends on the quality of the local schools music services. Ours go into both primary and secondary schools to do lessons and it costs very little indeed to do. If you are having lessons it costs nothing extra to go along to the ensembles, and if you aren't having lessons the ensembles only cost about £1 a week no matter how many you go to.
When both of my kids were having lessons and hiring instruments I was paying less than £30 a month in total. Reading all these comments makes me realise how lucky we are to be living up here!

I think most people are saying for your weekly individual lesson at school it is about £200 a term. If the parent is musical you can teach the child yourself which we did with some instruments - piano, singing and music theory but even so it can be expensive.

Another issue is time. I sit with the children when they practise as I am accompanying them on the piano. That is quite a time commitment. Not all parents are able to do that.

I agree with Moom that the majority of children in many private schools in Y7 will be doing lessons - I mentioned one school above with over 500 pupils a week having lessons at school. That is not the case in schools with parents who cannot afford the cost.

It's just too expensive for most people. Have a look at the private schools where the majority of Y7s will be having instrumental lessons. Unfair. My worst year, when I had two DSs at junior conservatoires, was over £10,000 for fees, courses, music ...

"Why cant kids commit to learning for the long term?Argh!!!!"

Perhaps they just found something else they wanted to commit to instead. Many parents can't afford to pay for more than one activity: if dd was to play an instrument she couldn't have drama lessons.

Besides, that early introduction to an instrument will mean they have more of a connection to music and more understanding of music later in life. Not everybody has to play. Music needs more people in the audience than up on the podium.

I gave up the piano, the cello and the guitar, basically because I gradually came to realise that they were taking time from what I really wanted to do. But I go to concerts, I buy DVD's, I watch music programmes on the telly: I am the reason the real musicians can keep going.

What about you, OP? Are you still keeping up the art you were taught in primary school? Painting watercolours, making portraits of your nearest and dearest, making pottery utensils? What about the sports- are you still committed to those? Most people tend to narrow their commitments as they grow older.

Pickledsiblings, that's good to hear. I wonder why my Suzuki teacher was so crap? It was the early 1970s. He was native Japanese and his English language skills were still in their early days, so perhaps that didn't help. Perhaps his rigid and unimaginative teaching methods had gone down well with little kids in Japan but he hadn't realised they might not suit older children in a less regimented society like the UK? I dunno. Does your DD have to play Twinkle Twinkle Effing Star variations though? I wouldn't have minded if it was just used to teach basic techniques when we were complete beginners - but we still had to do it, over and over again, for what seemed like years! God, I hate that tune now..

Vinegar Drinker - yes, I did have a try at learning the Irish fiddle in my 20s, and found a good teacher. Unfortunately my hands seemed to have stiffened up so much by then that I couldn't get them to do vibrato. A lot of Irish music is played very fast and I thought I'd never get up to speed enough to play with the Irish musicians I knew, so I let myself get discouraged and decided I must be no good. So I threw myself into partying and being a Gothic clothes horse for thirty years instead.

Now that I'm a middle-aged lady and that's all over, I'm looking around for things to do and wishing I had persevered with an instrument that I could play with other people. But as you say, it's never too late.. Not the fiddle now, because I injured my right arm a few years ago, but I've always liked the sound of the Uilleann pipes (Irish bagpipes).. and I believe there's an Irish music school in the city I now live in.. d'you know, that might be an idea. Perhaps I should go down there and see about having a bash.. If your MIL's doing it, perhaps there will be some other older learners too..