How long can people live like this?

It is a tricky one. I don't think I can support assisted dying because of the fear of it being abused. But the flipside is the situation described on here - people living half-lives for years and years because they're old but thanks to modern medicine and the fact there's nothing technically wrong apart from old age, not dying. I have this in my own family and it's miserable for everyone. I'd like to remember my centenarian relative as the person she was, the dynamic woman I adored as a kid, instead of a living ghost. But now she's been the latter almost as long as I remember her being the former.

I do think not having a breast screening is taking an unnecessary risk but it's your decision!

I've had the opposite in my family - people going to the doctor with symptoms they were told were minor, nothing to worry about, which later transpired to be cancer.

We are going to do the same too.

I blame the litigation threats. Doctors backs are against the wall in many cases. Families will often sue if they see a glimmer of money in the wings.
We had this discussion at our last bible study, and although for reasons not needed here, we did not support assisted dying, we all agreed that interventions have gone too far. Keeping someone out of pain is kind, keeping them alive against natural odds is not.
I just want to add that from a Christian point of view, it is absolutely acceptable to pray for a fair and kindly death for someone suffering.
Its modern life...its not easy.

The assisted dying bill was only supposed to apply to those with under six months to live, so it would not have affected the kind of people you and the OP are talking about. Commenters like you, and many others who appear on threads like these, are also, probably unwittingly, making a pretty good case for why the bill did not pass, since you are already advocating for it to go well past its original remit before it has even been passed. The slippery slope argument has never been more evident than in discussions of assisted dying.
As for your assertion that nobody who opposed the assisted dying bill could ever have seen a loved one suffer, this is a demonstrably false statement. Both of my parents died of slow, painful illnesses. However, neither of them were in favour of assisted dying. My father, like myself, was disabled all his life. Both of us lived, mostly happy lives, with the sort of conditions I have seen people claim would make life not worth living and yet our lives were very much worth living. My problem with the assisted dying bill is, as exemplified by your post, with people already agitating for it to be extended beyond the terminally ill, it will only be a matter of time before disabled people are allowed, possibly encouraged, to 'put themselves out of their misery'. After all, it is far cheaper to kill someone than actually provide good quality care so it is not far-fetched to imagine this situation arising.
I am also alarmed that one of the OP's concerns seems to be that family members are finding the prolonged lives of their relatives difficult and possibly inconvenient, only one of the people she mentions seems to have actually expressed a wish to die. I thought the assisted dying bill was supposed to be entirely for the well-being of the terminally ill, not for the comfort or convenience of family members who are fed up of going to visit grandma in a nursing home and who wish she would hurry up and snuff it. This is a clear illustration of the concerns many of us had about undue family or medical pressure being put on people to accept assisted dying, which we were told would would never happen.

Do you know any very old people? Have you seen someone close to you through their final years? Long, slow end of life is awful for all involved. My neighbour regularly tells me she wants to die.

Unfortunately you cannot choose how you go

My great-grandma is alive and she is 103. She's outlived her husband (by 20 years now), my dad, and all of her friends. She's miserable and regularly says she doesn't want to be here, despite being in an expensive and very nice care home (which is bankrupting the entire family as she ran out of her own money years ago but that's another story). My mum, her oldest daughter, hates seeing her like that. It's really sad.

What I'm specifically and massively worried about is being stuck for endless years in the situations I see some of my elderly relatives being in. I'm a hugely self-sufficient and private person. I loathe the thought of ending up in bed most of the day and relying on anyone to dress me, shower me and wipe my arse. I dread reaching a point where I can no longer do the hobbies and activities I enjoy. I'm particularly scared of losing my sense of self, my memories, my ability to recognise my loved ones.

I don't want the option of assisted dying because I want my ERs to die. I want the option of assisted dying so that I can make the choice to check out on my terms if/when I get to that position.

I don't want to linger on like this when I am elderly.

Once I lose my independence and my mind starts to go I would much prefer ending things with dignity.

I don't think that keeping people alive at all cost once your quality of life is gone is how it should be.

But people/politicians don't seem to be willing to have a mature debate about choosing assisted dying.

And of course we also need to be willing to fund social care and elderly care properly so they elderly people don't end up having cared for by exhausted, unpaid female family members (as it is always almost women who are expected to do this and 'sacrifice' their own lives).

You don't have any experience of the hell some people go through with elderly parents do you! Your comment is utterly disgusting! You think every elderly parent is a happy little sweetie that's a ray of sunshine and that as kids we are scumbags that just want their money?

My 75 year old mother has had mental health issues since having her first child at 21, in the last ten years since our dad died she has put my brother and I and our aunt through hell! She has threatened suicide countless times, she has been on Diazepams and lorazepams for 46 years and uses them as a weapon! She even tried to get me to sign a DNR which would have dropped me right in it as a will beneficiary if she'd topped herself after I signed it. She's very mentally abusive, used to be very violent to us when we were kids, she's narcissistic. And her behaviour is getting worse because her metabolism is slowing and not processing the drugs in her system quick enough so she's clumsy and more delusional!
You have no right to judge people in such a horrible way! I'm not going to stop her killing herself, I'm tired of threats and wish she'd just do it! Ever had your mother tell you that she's left you money on the mantle piece to have her dog put to sleep once we find her dead?

Do you have experience of this? I do. Mil thankfully didn't live long after getting to the wishing to die stage. It truly was a blessing.

It is hideous for everyone involved. A solution? I remember wishing there were a pill I could give my lovely dad, just to release him from the nightmare. Were it not for modern science, he would have died “naturally” a few years before his true death. Those last few years were bad. But the long final stretch on his death bed (that’s the only way to describe it) was really traumatic. This once bright and merry man, who had spoken half a dozen languages, was blind and couldn’t speak at all.

Thank you for this @Carandache18 I don't blame you for refusing all screenings. I have a friend who is 63, who has had much of what I named in the thread you quoted - all the tests and screenings and all that jazz... And when she had a tiny bit of blood in her poo, (after doing a FIT test, to check for bowel cancer,) the first place the doctors mind went to was BOWEL CANCER. YOU MAY HAVE BOWEL CANCER! Even though, in 97% of cases, it is NOT bowel cancer!

Scared the living shit out of her, and ruined what should have been a lovely joint 60th birthday celebration holiday with her husband, because she was told she needs a colonoscopy, so they can see if she has cancer, and if they see any little polyps they will cut them out.

In the end she refused the colonoscopy as she was scared it may do more harm than good, and was genuinely terrified of it, and insisted on an MRI scan. They did this, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with her. Probably just strained a bit when she had a poo, and also she had a bit of a thing for food with chillis for a few months, and even they can cause a little blood in the poo.

When she suggested to the person she first saw when she spoke to the colorectal department, (who did a bit of an assessment before she saw the consultant,) she said it could possibly just be chillis. The woman dismissed her immediately and said 'I have NEVER heard of chillis causing blood in the poo. It could be something very serious.' Put the fear of God into her. For nothing. My friend said she will never do another FIT test again. She also refuses to go to a breast screening.

And this woman was wrong. Chillis CAN cause blood in your poo. My friend reckons that's what it was. She is never doing another FIT test though. I don't think I will either. I have also never had breast screening, and I never will. And I am not explaining why, or being told off for it by anyone.

!

My father had Parkinsons. He was desperate to die but too afraid to commit suicide in case any attempt failed and he was left in a worse state than he already but still not dead. It was utterly cruel to watch.

to me little seems to have improved and in 2 instances the final years have been so miserable for two i happen to know
first years ago my Nanna was cared for by family members; she seemed to be passed from one member of the family who cared for her until they were exhausted and then moved on again, she was never the most agreeable lady old age did not improve that. she had ulcers bedsores dementia infections it was a miserable life for her and everyone involved.
a few years ago my ex's father was left alone when his mother died. after an horrific fall he had numerous injuries including a badly broken hip which did not heal properly, from that day on he was bed bound. four years he lay in bed with increasingly bad joint problems, incontinence, UTI's dementia etc. we had 9 occasions when we were called to the home or hospital to say he was dying but somehow he rallied round. that four years aged me it was a roller coaster of never knowing what the next phone call would bring thankfully he slipped away peacefully just after supper one night

It is a disgrace. People are kept alive by medicine. But it is no life. Slumped in a wheelchair, all day everyday. It is unkind. It is undignified. And wicked.

People can be moved from a hospital bed and someone who did not know you decide you have to be in a care home. A sterile box. Not your own home. Never to see your things ever again. Never have your usual routine ever again. Never to sit in your own furniture again. Never sleep in your own bed again. Unlike the brochure will no doubt state, you will have to get up when it suits the care staff, eat when it suits them, go to bed likewise. Even have TV on you would never watch.

There is a cruelty to all of it.
I once heard of a woman who had late stage dementia, so severe, was resuscitated after having a massive heart attack. I can only assume the medical staff were terrified of being sued if not.

Medicine keeps people alive.
Medicine needs to work out a balance between when it is time to let someone go with dignity and when you do intervene.

It hasn’t yet.

I have noticed that my the parents of my friends who are living at home do get a lot more UTI’s than my DM in a nursing home. This is something I haven’t thought about before.

My FIL had advanced dementia,had had a fall and was in the local cottage hospital. He kept developing sepsis and everytime he did he was blue lighted to Burton hospital where he would be put on a drip and filled with antibiotics. The drip had to be bandaged to his arm because he kept ripping it out . He had no idea what was happening or where he was. My husband spoke to the consultant about why they kept doing invasive treatment and was told "We are a hospital. If you come in with a treatable condition we have to treat it even if that appears cruel". In the end the family agreed father would remain at the cottage hospital when the next crisis occurred,they would be called and dad would be allowed to die. With both my FIL and my own father we found its actually quite hard to just die unless something sudden absolutely overwhelms you. Lower grade things will be dealt with so they never develop into pneumonia or bronchitis which used to be called ' the old man's friend' because they'd quietly see you out. Now you just go on and on.

Money is a problem.

At some point my DM is going to run out of money. Her CH fees are burning through her modest estate. When that happens she will likely moved to a cheaper, state funded CH.

This how I see it playing out:

DM's care will be less attentive. Infections will become more common. CH wont want to deal with this so DM will be shipped off to hospital. There she will spend hours in A&E, confused, terrified, in soiled pad and clothes. Maybe she will be admitted, maybe she will be sent back to the CH. Only for the whole thing to be repeated time and again until the stress of it finally kills her.

This is what continuing medical treatment can lead to. No privacy, no dignity, no comfort.

Yes I hear you OP. My mil is blind, completely demented, non verbal now, doubly incontinent. No quality of life and lies in a bed moaning all day. Care home do a great job but there is nothing there. Earlier in her dementia journey she kept asking for an "off switch" and please switch her off. It's heartbreaking. There is no answer.

You really don't have a clue do you because you've clearly had the luxury of not having to deal with the issues some of us have!
My mum has had poor mental health my whole life, used to give my brother and violent beatings as kids for no real reason. Her doctors 46 years ago (the year I was born) thought it clever to get her on diazepam and lorazepams (despite having a baby and a 5 year old to be responsible for whilst our dad was working) and she's still hooked on those drugs to this day.

My dad died 10 years ago, my mum is now 75 and her mental health issues have got worse and worse, I believe she has Borderline personality disorder but her doctors won't talk to me. She likes threatening suicide, even threatening to overdose herself and her dog to the ambulance crew and police after she put suicide note through my brother's door - they did nothing with her because she refused to go anywhere.

She treats me, my brother and our aunt appallingly every time her mental health crashes, she had a phase earlier this year of guzzling a bottle of wine a day with her tablets in the hope she wouldn't wake up, she'd end up in a stupor and not answer phone to my aunt and as my brother is the only one living near here he would have to go and do a "death check". She stopped the wine when it just made her very ill. She has made my brother ill at times with the stress of her and her volatility!

She isn't celebrating and neither are we, we'd rather she just ends it if that's what she wants! She wanted me to sign a DNR for her, I refused as it's not legal for me to be signing it as a daughter and beneficiary if she dies too herself afterwards!

the last time I saw my smart funny witty feisty grandmother, she was in a chair unable to recognise anyone being spoonfed some watery porridge by a carer.
She had vascular dementia and her last years were full of terror and anxiety.
She had a fall, and my stupid uncle pressed for her to have a hip operation. She would never have consented to that . The anaesthetic destroyed the rest of her memory.

It was like watching a form of torture...

In many cases its not as you say a natural end of life process. I worked for many years in social care and some very frail poorly residents declined to eat. They were encouraged to eat soft sweet food and given calorie laden drinks like ensure and Calshots. In some cases they lasted a very long time. Personally I think it's cruel. Most were bed bound and had to be regularly repositioned.

Plenty of people do want it, there is a definite need for it.