How long can people live like this?

A friend of mine who was now 70 was planning to use his private pension to pay for his care when he got older. However he lives in a social housing flat and now hes retired hes expected to pay his rent and council tax with it until its down to £16,000 or below. You get help with social care at £23,000 He had £29.000 in his pension. The pension co charged him £6.000 to transfer his pension to his current account so he can use it to pay his rent. So its now down to 23.000 which is the lowest amount you can have before getting help with social care anyway. But as its going to be spent on the luxuries that are rent and council tax then its moot anyway. Saving does no good in this situation.

If you can keep someone alive and you don't, surely that's the same as euthanasia?

Exactly!

@HappyViewer I agree that you couldn't make decisions about your care once dementia had really set in, but perhaps you could when you were first diagnosed? As I said upthread, it wouldn't surprise me if my Dad (88) stops taking his medication when he's had enough of living. If he starts showing signs of dementia/is diagnosed, that might be the time that he does it. Due to his current medical conditions, he'd likely have a massive heart attack or stroke, and he has a DNR in place.

I'm pretty sure that I would take matters into my own hands if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia, because I really don't want my family dealing with it.

Errr, allow them to die peacefully of natural causes, and not keep pumping them with antibioltics and shit, keeping them artificially alive with ZERO quality of life.

It's so interesting to read your comment as my dad died from oesophageal cancer, they initially told him it was operable which was stupid because he hadn't had his pet scan at that point! When they did the scan it had metastasized to his liver and wasn't operable. He had two rounds of chemo to prolong his life but he ended up with sepsis from it wiping his immune system and it killed him. My family look upon in it as negligence which it kind of us but I think it was the better thing to happen to him! His tumours had actually shrunk but I always thought about the nasty death sentence he had ahead of his if he'd had to go through it all!

Even if it had been operable, the suffering afterwards for patients that had it sounded awful! When they cut part of your oesophagus out and pull your stomsch up to stitch it back together it's pretty horrific and the gastric issues long term sounded so grim.

The problem is, in my 40s, my view was that if I was diagnosed with cancer in my early 70s, I'd take palliative care rather than suffer the awfulness of chemo and a reduced quality of life.

I am in my early 70s, I have cancer and am on oral chemo. My quality of life is fine apart from OA of the hip, and I can expect a normal life span, according to my consultant (unless bikes whizzing down pavements and through red lights take me out first).

Doctors used to view old age as an inevitable decline rather than a treatable condition. Elderly people wouldn’t have received a formal diagnosis, surgery, or rehabilitation.

This is the reason ADRT forms are so important. It's unlikely that many of the people in this predicament now (aged 85+ say) will have considered making one of these, perhaps because their own parents lived in an era (pre the Shipman reforms) when doctors weren't so hellbent on keeping frail, failing old people alive. If you have stated your wishes clearly while still capable, doctors and relatives are on firmer ground, legally.

Sometimes going on for 10, 12, 14 years or more. (The medical profession do everything in their power to keep them alive for some bizarre reason..)

Well what else can they do, legally?

Yes the burden absolutely falls to females to do all the caring.
Think about it though.
Women working full time until they are 67.
How on earth can they care for sick relatives?
Maybe some can have them live with them but it really depends on several factors.
I’ve yet to meet anyone whose male relatives do the majority of the caring.
Lots of other countries don’t provide free care for the elderly, that’s another reason people (women) do the caring.
There is a growing backlash against it though.

Would you want to lie in bed in a nappy unable to do anything for years knowing it is only going to get worse?

What this poster said! 👏Fings ain't wot they used to be! Generations of family no longer live within a stone's throw of each other, and there's no longer a dozen or more people within a mile to look after the elderly family members. Also, as you say, it's not a matter of looking after them for 1-3 years after they first start needing help - like it used to be - they can linger on and on for many years.

I know a few people (women obviously) who are run ragged looking after an elderly parent, and when they have a fall or some kind of 'turn' or setback, and have to be blue-lighted to hospital, they always come back, again and again and again. They keep 'fixing' them like putting a band aid on them, but they're still vulnerable and need constant care and they cannot be left alone, so need someone helping them/caring for them every day. As you say, this can go on for many years, 10 at the very least...

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Agree 100%!

Why the fuss about about making assisted dying legal. Ultimately when strong pain medication & drips etc are prescribed to the seriously ill during palliative care in the final phase of life this in reality already happens & always has done.

The problem is, in my 40s, my view was that if I was diagnosed with cancer in my early 70s, I'd take palliative care rather than suffer the awfulness of chemp and a reduced quality of life. As I approach 70, I think I'd like to see my grandchildren grow a litter bigger and older and share more family joy. One's existence becomes more precious as mortality approaches.

Same here. I have seen it happen to too many people. Just existing, with ZERO quality of life, doubly incontinent, advanced dementia, can barely see or hear, have to have their nappies changed by carers, and be bathed by carers... Sometimes going on for 10, 12, 14 years or more. (The medical profession do everything in their power to keep them alive for some bizarre reason..)

Nope. Ain't happening to me.

As has been said (a few times,) there s far too much money to be made in care homes to let these people die.

But eastern countries are like it was here a few generations back - big families, lots of daughters and daughters in law hanging about to share the burden living close together, and admittedly I’m not certain, but I’d guess health care is not freely available, so they might be “looking after Granny” but I’d bet granny doesn’t live long once an infection/broken hip/pneumonia sets in.
That’s the big difference - its one thing looking after someone for a year or so, but western carers could well be doing it for decades with the patient deteriorating with every episode of illness but not dying.
Give it 50yrs when their standard of living rises, smaller families, women working outside the home, it’ll be just the same problems there.

My dad and his younger brother both had cancer of the oesophagus at the same time.
My Dad's brother was (78) and healthy - he was offered surgery, chemo and radio. He had it all - he went into remission for a year and then it came back - he had an awful time, felt rotten - had a miserable last few years and he regretted having the surgery and the medication, but he didn't feel able or strong enough to refuse. He died in hospital.

Dad (86) was offered palliative care as he was too unhealthy to operate on, to have chemo and/or radio. To my Dad his cancer was a minor irritation, you'd ask him and he'd say he was fine, it didn't bother him, he lived longer that his brother, and had a better quality of life away from hospitals and medication, it wasn't cancer that killed him. And he did just fall asleep like in the movies, in his own bed in his own house just like he had wished for!

We're all different - there's no guarantees.

I have to admit, I don't know any retired people who regularly look after their grandchildren. Many people live some miles from parents, and they visit each other every few weeks, and have the grandkids on the odd weekend (maybe 4 or 5 weekends a year,) but that is often because the grandparents want the grandkids there.

Very few retired people are looking after their adult childrens children. As I say, the distance people live from one another would make this impossible.

“You would moan if you had to pay for it but won’t do it yourself.”

I want them to pay for care!

“You would also probably have expected them to babysit your children for you when they were younger and able.”

They have never babysat my children. I don’t live nearby.

Actually it is easy and you can. But - and a big but you do need the relevant legal paperwork in place and someone willing to be an immovable wall on your behalf.
I did this with my husband two years ago and stood my ground despite being accused of “murdering Steve by not allowing the paramedics to take him into hospital”. He had terminal cancer and at that point hours to days to live - he survived four days at home instead of a hospital corridor. No treatment would have made any difference bar making him die in a frankly shitty hospital with shitty care.
Thankfully I have an equally courageous poa and a solicitor who’s made sure I have the same protections whether I have capacity or not.
dying is not the worst thing to happen to a person imo.

It’s bloody hard work and takes its toll on you physically and mentally.

I’m not elderly and yes, I would refuse treatment. I don’t have a desire to live to a very old age.

I doubt any women caring for an elderly parent would regard the gendered expectations around this 'irrelevant'. I'm currently in this position and I certainly don't.

[Edit, forgot to add] And, out of interest, have you ever cared for an elderly relative yourself i.e. do you know the reality of it?