How long can people live like this?

Very elderly, chairbound people are not having a "natural life process". Usually cancer, heart attack or pneumonia will have seen them off. I know an 80yr old with early stage dementia who was given a pacemaker.
Modern medicine is amazing but sometimes it seems to go too far.

Surely the problem is they don't want to live like this either.

My grandma didn't, her last two years were awful, just losing all pleasures, unable to eat or swallow proper food, losing sight, losing ability to read, watch TV, chat or hear other people, it's just awful and she said she's rather not bother, but you can't will yourself to die, even if you don't want to live like that.

I pray something carries me off before I get to that very last stage, the thought of being bed bound, incontinent and not able to enjoy simple pleasures of food, company and going out, no thanks.

Unfortunately I'm not sure assisted dying as it was proposed would help as you are not terminally ill in the obvious sense. I hope we can shuffle off though by the time I get there. Not having antibiotics/refusing to go to hospital is ok if you have good palliative/nursing care to cope with pain.

No one wants to die in physical or emotional pain. But we have to die of something. Antibiotics can be refused, but strong painkillers can be perscribed instead. A good, experienced (older) doctor understands that their job is to perscribe to make the patient comfortable. And if the side effect of that is decreased respiration and sedation that's acceptable.

Indeed. My mother is 90 and still has a good quality of life. However, fibe years ago she was diagnosed with acute aortic stenosis. This was resolved with a TAVI. Withoit the TAVI she would likely have died from heart failure by now.

Just after the TAVI she developed frequent dizzy spells. She then was diagnosed with a skin cancer near her nose, surgically removed and needing 70 stitches with a perfect and unnoticeable outcome. Then a lesion on her ear which was removed almost to the margin.

The dizzy spells turn out to arise from a mengioma in the frontal cortex and there are basal ganglia infarcts. The left soded tremor started about two years ago and she's now been diagnosed woth Parkinsons. She is wrought with anxiety about thw fitire and her dimonishment.

She wouldn't manage on her own and step does all the shopping and cooking. However, she is still smart, on the ball and enjoys, with step, a social life.

20 years ago the TAVI wouldn't have been available and leading into it we thought she was marvellously healthy.

I'm glad she got over the heart issue but ot's been a roller coaster and who knows what's ahead. It's likely to be grim. If step keels over (not unlikely) she won't be able to live alone. One lives on the hope that a massive stroke might take her swiftly but it's a wicked hope.

Well the alternative is assisted dying. Yet a very recent vote in parliament said a resounding no. So there’s not a lot anyone can do about it. What would you suggest? Are you advocating assisted dying?

You really wouldn’t have any treatment for cancer, you’d leave a dodgy mole for example?

My Mil is well over 90 and wouldn’t want to die at all. There’s a lot of generalisation on this thread.And end of life is not for the convenience of relatives.

Yeah, it's weird that we let people suffer because we can't write a proper policy for when it's okay. How hard can that even be?

oh it’s awfully sad. I have a friend who cares for her 95 year old mother who luckily lives on the same street. She is over there at least 3 times a day looking after her because bless her she wants to to her best and not have her mother in a home. I worry so much about my friend as she has been doing this for around ten years.
on the other hand my grandmother died at 81. We were incredibly shocked as she was fully independent in her own home. She travelled abroad, regularly to shops on bus, went to the pub! She just died one day sitting on the sofa watching tv. No warning signs. We were all blindsided because she was so active and such a character but it’s certainly how I would prefer to go

It feels really alien to me that people can exist for so long like that (probably because half my relatives seem to die relatively young whilst the other half are sprightly and active into their 90's before a quick downturn. Despite having a really large family, I've never known someone be in a care home).

Surely quality should be considered just as much as quantity of life. It seems desperately sad to think of people confined to bed and actively wishing for death for a prolonged period of time.

I agree about the revolving door of appointments. Once you hit 60, they're constantly on at you, shingles vaccine, flu jab, covid jab, shit on a stick test, (for bowel cancer) breast-screening, multiple blood tests, wanting to shove tubes up your arse and down your throat, doing MOTs on people, doing medicine reviews, doing asthma reviews (where they teach people who have been asthmatic for 20 years how to use an inhaler,)🙄and just generally wanting to poke and prod and cut bits away outside and inside of you to do 'biopsies' etc etc etc...

If I was diagnosed with cancer now, (late 50s) I would not have any treatment/chemo/radiotherapy. It would probably do me more harm than the cancer! I have seen people wrecked by cancer treatment, with their lives upended, barely able to put one foot in front of the other, and unable to do anything, (even go out alone,) for 2-3 years, only to die anyway - just a year later than they would have died, if they had had no treatment.

The more doctors prod, the more they find and old age becomes a revolving door of appointments. My dad died of dementia 13 years ago, the last week of which was spent semi- conscious in a care home bed unable to eat or drink. He would have hated that had he known.
My partner is currently at the in-laws flat waiting for the second ambulance of the day after yet another FIL fall. They cannot get him off the floor and there's a strong smell of urine in the flat. They won't consider getting a cleaner or taxis, even though they're wealthy, partly from pride and partly because their generation don't like spending money (except on cruises). In the meantime, the phone calls keep coming.... He'll probably spend a couple of days receiving corridor care again. This isn't working.

Yes this is really tough. Medicine has facilitated longer lives but not always good quality of life.

And, as with many medical/scientific advancements, we have failed to think through and plan for all possible outcomes: better healthcare (good); the high financial and emotional price of enabling longer but often very poor quality lives (bad).

We want or expect people to die “naturally” but throw the kitchen sink at getting in the way of that - and rightly so in many cases, but as others note there is something horrific about the poor, withered, miserable lives that can reluctantly remain against their own will.

Because who could decide what constitutes adequate quality of life? There are so many different people and situations. Refusing antibiotics and DNRs are helpful, but like others say who could see someone confused and in pain and not want to alleviate it?

This question always makes me think of the film Midsommar: about a (fictional) society where people willingly commit suicide at a certain old age, to ensure the community can continue and prosper. It’s a horror film with lots of other shocking things in it. But it makes its point: what awful, unusual things might be necessary for the greater good?

As a society we seem pretty good at doing and normalising awful and unusual things not for the greater good, sadly!

My grandad lived until 92 and was quite active until the last 6 months. But he was bored. He couldn’t see to read or watch TV, all his friends had died and he couldn’t easily move around as he had only a few years earlier. I think a death pill would have been ideal for him.

Don't be so ridiculous. It is not an achievement. It's a horror show. It's absolute torture for these individuals. I actually hope you are rage baiting as I find it hard to believe any person could be so cruel as to willing inflict such a cruel and long lasting death on anyone. Let alone a loved one.

This, from @SquirrelSoShiny, bears a second look-
“Ironically more and more younger people are dying because they can't get the timely medical care they need, largely because the health service is overwhelmed by very elderly people with complex medical needs.”

My Mil and DF are both medical miracles, healthier now than when they were younger.
MiL’s QoL is not great, and she spends a lot of time upset and dissatisfied because she can’t do what she wants. She complains about her health and goes back and forth to the GP and the hospital, but nothing significant is ever found or resolved, really. She told us she had cancer last year, DH got very stressed and sad, appointment after appointment passed and cancer never came up again.
DF is also back and forth, but also very suspicious of medication. He’s only taking it at the moment after a telling off from a pharmacist he’d assumed would be sympathetic. He’s really resistant to organising the life he can manage, over the life he used to have. He’s angry that we aren’t all facilitating him to continue as if he was 60, but he’d need a rota of live in carers to achieve that. He’d like me to live there to pass him things, reach things, reorganise his cupboards, sort through his memorabilia, and generally wait on him hand, foot and finger.

My parents were living the life of Riley at my age. Many long holidays, no caring responsibilities. We’re organising around the needs of elderly relatives who get upset when we go on holiday, and without them.

Sorry I know that’s off topic, but suspect they will join the ranks of those discussed above and actually haven’t enjoyed life for some time.

I think it’s an extremely healthy generation. As I understand it, we won’t live as long as they have. What age that kicks in, I’m not sure.

you do know that DNR only relates to CPR and defib use don't you?

My parents died in their 60s after short illnesses having been fit and healthy only months before. Whilst it would have been nice to have another 10 years with them, I think that is the way to go.

I have a high chance of getting breast cancer. If I get it in my late 60s or 70s, I think like a PP, I might refuse treatment.

I can understand your frustration and feeling conflicted. My nan struggled on with terrible dementia, having falls and regularly being resuscitated after slipping away (which should never have been allowed to happen but I wasn't her NOK). In the end she did pass peacefully in her sleep, so it didn't take an untreated infection or painful illness to end her life. It was such a relief and so lovely to be able to feel sad for her loss, rather than grief for having lost her while she was still with us.

I have mourned my mother for the last four years, she was diagnosed with an terminal Neuro disease as has been unable to communicate for the last year. Bed bound, incontinent and hallucinating, she has emotional liability which means she has cried for the last three years and has not been happy for as long as I can remember, I don't know if she is in pain, I don't know if she is frightened but I do know that she is unhappy. Turned down for CHC but dependent on care due to being unable to move arms or legs or feed herself, reach for a drink, now unable to cough. Tell me why I should not pray for her not to wake up, a decade of pain and hurt for both of us. There is no pride in this life

Prescription drugs keep people going like that. 😪

I do think OP that, when you are not moving or thinking much, your body can survive on very little. I also presume that, if you make it to your 90s, you must have a very healthy body. My grandmother had been bed bound for a number of years, over a decade of diagnosed dementia and several pelvis breaks in later years (one of which needed surgery - we were all convinced she wouldn't survive the general anaesthetic). At 99 she had a stroke that left her unable to swallow. She survived another 3 weeks on one spoonful of yoghurt and her mouth being moistened to keep her comfortable. I miss her, but was so relieved for her sake when her body finally let her go.

Modern medicine. Great isn’t it?
Cure this, treat that, screened, scanned and medicated at very old ages to within an inch of our lives. To what end?
This is the result. At great individual and societal expense. We just don’t seem to want to let people die anymore.
Difficult conversations needed.
Nurse of 37 years.

It's true. It's not really benefitting anyone other than the pockets of the people right at the top of care companies who are stinking rich. People are kept alive artificially when their body is trying to die.

i work in bereavement. It’s horrendous. We need to get a handle on the right to die and the right to dignity. older people are being kept alive against their wishes with zero quality of life.