How long can people live like this?

I dunno. I've been on the edge of death twice. Both times, I was astonished by the intense power of the will to live. It's atavistic; nothing at all to do with conscious thought, value appraisals or even wishes. It overwhelms everything.

I don't think people's expressed 'desire to die' is meaningful in the deepest sense. The fact that they're having these thoughts indicates, in itself, that they are not ready to go. The body's instincts haven't yet kicked in. When people are actually in the process of dying, the will to live goes quiet and, 99 times out of 100, is replaced by an equally deep and focused acceptance.

Both my parents were very much enjoying life in their 90s, despite rapidly increasing debilities and reasonable resentment of same. Stepdad died after a couple of weeks in hospital, genuinely peaceful throughout. Mum took a few months at a care home - she also conked out quietly, having been asleep for most of the preceding weeks.

I write this in the knowledge that I have a chronic disease which leads inexorably to strokes, heart attacks and many years on supportive equipment. Without children or money, I believe I will opt to see myself off before becoming fully dependent. I also know I will instinctively rebel against this decision, perhaps so strongly that I don't go through with it. If this happens, I'll understand and will continue to seek the good in life - however small - until it peters out.

This is not anybody else's decision to make on my behalf. Let them make peace with their own instincts, not presume mine. Wishing for another's death is not kind; justifications can't make it any prettier.

I understand the strains of being in a caring role for the weak, disabled and unhappy. This is, however a choice. If you can't stand it, delegate.

At 91 my grandma was the same. At 96, she couldn't swallow normal food, lost her ability to see, move, and couldn't talk except for a whisper. Let's all pray that doesn't happen to our loved ones or us. It's not a question of if decline comes, it's when, and in my experience, it happens a lot to very fit old ladies who seem to have eaten good diets, done moderate exercise and there's nothing wrong with them as such, so the decline is very slow and can be extremely difficult for them and those watching them. My grandma loved life, but at 96 did say she'd had enough of living and refused to go to hospital for further treatment, which I think was right. Her heart was very strong and when she passed away she was 5 stone and completely shrunken, like half the person she had been, like a tiny frail bird. I don't want to be her and I don't want myself to go through that, if I'm honest though if it's my destiny, so be it.

We aren't talking about people who can eat what they like, see friends and go out and about. I'm not, anyway.

Voluntary Assisted Dying is legal throughout Australia
https://www.dignityindying.org.uk/assisted-dying/assisted-dying-around-the-world/australia/

Well yes of course - if they want to. But lots of people in that situation don't.

Woukd you want to live your life in bed, for years on end, in pain or discomfort, incontinent, maybe unable to see or hear?

My grandma died at 105. She was miserable and I could hear her cry at 3-4 am asking god to end it. It was horrific. She lost most of her sight and then her hearing as well, it was like being imprisoned. I was glad she died peacefully and not in pain.

I'm amazed that everyone in their 90s in Australia is hale and hearty. Must be something in the water

My mum is 91 and lives in a care home. She’s mobile, eats a normal diet, reads voraciously and enjoys visits with her family. Her neighbour is 100 and still enjoying life. I know couples in their 90s still living independently, exercising and discussing world events.

I live in Australia and discussions on MN about ageing always leave me bewildered and often disturbed. Both by the sheer numbers of elderly people apparently living years of misery begging for death and how rapidly the conversation always veers to financial cost and assisted suicide.

Her heart refused to stop beating 🤔 Your turn of phrase makes me wonder why and also (compassionately) what the right answer is.

Your last line was a massive blanket statement and unlikely in reality.

When MiL was bed bound and suffering from dementia, she knew no one, and was afraid of everything. We had to get a bit assertive about not giving a constant stream of antibiotics, but to ensure she had enough painkillers.

Who gets to be the judge of that?

It's horrendous when a loved one gets to that stage. If you haven't witnessed it, you just cannot understand how awful it.

DH had to put up with his Mum begging him to shove a pillow over her face every time he seen her. She only stopped asking when dementia left her as nothing but an empty shell of a once intelligent and vibrant lady. All she had in the end was a heart that refused to stop beating for 4 torturous years.

Medical science helps us live longer, much longer than our Grandparents and Great-Grandparents but for those who aren't lucky enough to stay healthy of mind and body, it isn't a life being lived.

Not if we're in constant pain and unable to enjoy any aspect of life.
My kids wouldn't make me feel a burden but when I am no longer independent I don't want to exist. And I'm not (by a long way) the only person that feels that way.
Your way of 'being kind' makes us suffer

Well if I was existing like that I'd want to die. I'd be happy to sign a statement that if I was bed bound and unable to communicate, I 'd like to be euthanised. Unfortunately there are many people who have fought very hard to prevent me from ending my life the way I'd like.

My grandmother lived until 97 and could still chat away happily until the last month of her life. She wanted to continue living in her care home and still valued her life.

That was to @FashionPassion not @maudelovesharold

I need to step away from this thread though, I'm taking it too personally.

I used to look at my dad when he was in the advanced stages of dementia and wonder what on earth compelled him to open his eyes every morning, and once they were open wonder what on earth went through his head as he looked around and remembered nothing and no one.

I completely agree OP.

I completely disagree with your characterisation of what's going on here. I've loved every old and dying person in my life, and there's been many, and selfishly I've wanted them to go on for myself, but even I can see when there's endless suffering and just being a body which doesn't do any of the fun stuff in life (see, eat, hear, be continent) it's ok to not want to live that life.

I'm not talking about tolerating older people, that's not what this thread is about at all, it's about being so frail and elderly that when you lie in bed your skin peels off and blisters as it's so fragile, and then prolonging that stage of life with lots of interentions which are entirely against the natural order of what nature would have allowed to happen.

You do you, though and if you want to stick it out as a bed-bound, incontinent, distressed old person with cognitive confusion, go at it.

Medics are so pushy though. There’s a presumption that you will opt to have life saving treatment and they are often quite aghast when you say no.

A relative of mine went into a nursing home, ostensibly to die. He’d decided on no further treatment beyond pain relief, forms filled out, home onboard, wife onboard.

Once he started going downhill there were nurses on the phone at 3am with the we’re just going to transfer him to hospital for some I.V. antibiotics.

This is exactly what he didn’t want so his wife said no but the nurse was incredibly pushy. I think in similar circumstances so many families cave and just go along with what is being presented. Same with Covid/ flu vaccines snd antibiotics for every infection.

Really difficult discussions need to be had in advance and decision smade. I think medics and care home staff should be much more respectful snd supportive of those decisions. Patient’s shouldn't be pushed towards further treatment ( that they’ve said they don’t want! ) and should be supported with as much pain relief and/ or sedation as it takes to alleviate their suffering.

They’ll just gradually stop eating and then pass away probably. That’s what happened to the last very elderly person I knew and it wasn’t for want of trying to get her to eat. My mother in law would make her delicious meals but she would pick at them.

I thought the poster you quoted meant when life becomes a burden for the person, and they have had enough, not the person becoming a burden on others.

@ved same. Just no to the lot of it.

My mother had a DNAR. She had declined heart surgery when she had capacity. When her heart was failing the care home asked us if we wanted them to call an ambulance. We said no. The nursing team attended, put her on a morphine drip and she passed away peacefully hours later

I just looked it up and it’s almost like 100% of people in their 90s taking some sort of heart medication whether it’s a blood thinner or high blood pressure pill

I indirectly work with care homes and pharmacies and FIL is almost 98. Personally I think more pain relief should be provided. So many elderly people with such low quality of life, it makes me so sad for them. The weekly medication for them is delivered in multiple carrier bags, they are keeping pharmaceuticals happy and we are prolonging life, but what is it for if someone is doubly incontinent, has dementia, unable to eat solids and can't move. We should be having discussions on our choices in old age now. Don't wait for it to happen and then it is out of your control. I will be refusing vaccinations, medications and do not resuscitate orders in place if I get to that point. Nobody would choose to live like that.