How long can people live like this?

Have you any idea how horrific being starved to death is? Because that's what happens on these end of life pathways.

No flippin' idea why my reply was hidden!

I can't be bothered to submit a query - will wait and see whether it reappears. It says something, though, if fellow posters are offended by the idea that choosing death for someone else may not be morally desirable.

With apologies for my bluntness, your aunt could deal with this herself if she was deeply serious about it.

I may as well add that, 20 years ago, I'd have said the life I lead now would be intolerable and would've entertained the thought that I'd rather not live like 'that'. Turns out it's okay. Objectively, I don't like it. But I am living it - and would rather this than have no more tomorrows, ever.

What about the ones who are in constant pain, discomfort or just plain bored, unable to move, sore from existing. Some want to go, I know I will. I wouldn’t want to spend a decade in that condition.
My aunt is in relatively good health, married, she’s 90 but she’s said she’s had enough, she’s tired and waiting to go. I think people should be able to choose, not kept alive because it’s more palatable.

Of course not. But we can avoid suggesting that the lives of those doing the support work - who are indeed affected - are more valuable than those who need the support.

No, they pop their clogs in similar fashion.

"It should be noted that the vast majority of patients 'put out of their misery' by doctors acting illegally are older women."

You don't think it's because men habitually pop their clogs at a younger age?

Except you've just described two cases where this option was exercised.

I recognise that it is more difficult than it used to be, for which we may thank Harold Shipman and a few subsequent 'healthcare' professionals who took on the power of death rather too willingly. I know this is under Parliamentary review and very much hope they'll arrive at a set of workable but safe protocols. There's still some compassionate scope for doctors, though, as evidenced by many people's experiences including my own mother's.

It should be noted that the vast majority of patients 'put out of their misery' by doctors acting illegally are older women. It looks like an unused vagina makes us even more worthless than a redundant penis. Plus ça change ...

I knew a person who suffered very bad health and was put on tbe pain reduction pathway which was basically doses increased daily with no food or water until she lost consciousness and died.

I also knew a person with terminal cancer who made all the necessary arrangements and accidentally took a fatal overdose of morphine when it got too bad.

It is quite normal for people to want to die in their own homes while they still can. Sadly this option is often taken from them.

We don’t talk about medical interventions, quality of life, withdrawing treatment, advanced health documents (?) enough. The legal documentation is too lengthy, and too expensive.

There should be regular programmes, The One Show and breakfast tv etc should have bits every six months, get people talking about it like it’s normal, not an ‘unpleasant’ thing to talk about. When interviewing celebrities, ask them what they think, let it become something in everyday conversations.

Otherwise it’ll carry on, elderly people with no quality of life just suffering.

And people saying ‘ooh look at Margaret, isn’t she wonderful?’ And Margaret cannot see enough to read or watch tv, cannot hear enough to listen to anyone, is lonely, no children, husband died, niece too busy, nephew far away, and she just wants to close her eyes and fade away. And we are falling over ourselves to ensure she lives as long as possible. Why? It’s cruel.

That's an interesting comment. You seem to be saying that nasty people should be prevented from spending their own money on their own healthcare.

Does this mean you'd like to see an old woman forced to die early and painfully, so the children she failed as a mother can get their hands on her money? Seems like a twisted idea of justice to me. What's the price of a good mother, and how would blood money have improved their long-gone childhoods?

If that is the reasoning, I'm curious as to how you feel the adult children of abusive mothers without money should be treated.

Killing them without their consent is not the answer to that. If society starts saying it's fine to kill people once they're perceived as a burden, where does it end?

(And I know you didn't say we should kill them, it's just difficult to see where else the conversation could lead, once people start talking in terms of people being burdens who live too long.)

Poster has their own agenda, don’t worry about it too much.

My dad asked me on more than one occasion to help him end his life, it isn’t about wanting to make it easier for people around them, or about us waiting for them to die…these are people who want to die. They’re old, frail, in pain…they’re basically dying an incredibly slow death, often trapped in their own minds at the end (my dad was). It is really sad and unfair that they have to live that way when they don’t want to.

We have to focus on quality, not longevity.

You can refuse to let them have antibiotics and put them on a 'pain reducing' path, so with a UTI - they just get pain reduction.

I honestly think we keep people alive, and I do wonder if it is for profit, it is certainly not for life quality.

The thing is, the medical professional has to keep them alive. My FIL almost died earlier this year. He's been very unwell & can't even use his legs, toilet himself & can barely lift a spoon. They revived him & said right, off to age care. He can't do anything for himself & never leaves his room. It's admittly a huge drain on us & all his money has been eaten in care fees already. He will likely live for years like this if they keep reviving him. No quality of life, just endless medical intervention, drugs & begging for a carer to take him to the toilet. They've gotten sick of it so he's got a permanent catheter.

My GM, at 101, was begging to die and crying as they were saying another feeding tube down the throat for you..... as she could no longer eat & was literally vomiting feaces. Thankfully she passed before the last tube.

What's the point? Where's the dignity?

@CharSiu It wouldn't surprise me if my Dad (88) decides one day that he'll stop taking his medication, because he's ready to go. He's got various conditions and would likely have a heart attack or stroke without medication. He has a DNR so that would probably be the end.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to assert our agency as your Father did and if we don't want treatment, we should refuse it.

À friends mum-who was absuive to all her kids... Blew through over a million quid on care...

Threads like this make me heave. We have looked after our foster son (severely disabled from birth) for over 20 years. He isn't a burden and he isn't sad. He just has a quieter life than most people. It's the thin end of the wedge when we normalise views about people being burdens.

FWIW, I believe the Assisted Dying Bill failed because open discussion about it was prohibited. When you tell people who feel uneasy or have questions that they are shameful, you're just shutting them up, in which case you don't deserve to get your bill through Parliament.

@LazyCrazyAndStupid - why is your father still at home, taking so much out of your mum?

My thought exactly. I find these threads really disturbing. My parents (in Australia incidentally) are in their 70s and 80s and leading a very active life. I am in the U.K. but have quite a lot of elderly neighbours in their 80s and 90s who also live independently, going on holiday, etc.

what are we proposing - that as soon as they start declining, it’s a lethal injection? Shall we also do that for severally disabled younger adults and children who need round the clock care?

There is no good solution. My dad is 89 now and for the past 3 years has had Parkinson's and lewy body dementia. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Till then he used to be so active and full of life. Now He can't walk independently (or do anything for himself), he is practically blind and now his hearing is going. He doesn't enjoy any of the things he used to love. He refuses to get out of bed till late at evening. He has constant body aches. He has got terrifying and terribly upsetting paranoid delusions and hallucinations. He is convinced my mum is having multiple affairs and that his nurses are trying to kill him. My mum lives in hell because he keeps calling her every minute and accusing her in very graphic details. Every day he cries that he just wants to die. He doesn't respond well to medication. It's no life, worse, he is trapped in a nightmare that he can't wake up from but what can you do? Nothing. His body is strong otherwise. He could keep going like this for years. The worst is there is no way out from this except for dying. What a scary thought that must be. It cannot get better. My heart breaks for my parents but there is no good solution. Maybe if he had a doctor that cared enough to find a sedative that would allow him to just sleep but that is the best you could hope for and even that is not a possibility. As I said there is no good solution but how on earth are you meant to accept this?

My Father refused treatment for cancer in his eighties as he had in his words lived long enough. I found his strength and resilience amazing really. The hospice nurses were fantastic at keeping him comfortable.

Then we need to have a good hard look at our priorities.

Our elders aren't clutter at the edges of our lives and a person doesn't become less human because they lose physical or mental faculty.

We all benefit from advances in medicine that mean we don't die from things that would have killed us 50 years ago. The payoff for that is that we're all living longer. You can't have one without the other and I don't know what the answer is but I do know that some kind of Logan's Run scenario isn't it. Maybe if we get ourselves a proper health and social care system, then things would look a bit different.

They won't put her in a care home though because it'll rinse the inheritance

That's the quiet part people won't say out loud.

A friend of mine was caring for her elderly grandfather who was bed bound and needed antibiotics for recurring infections. The GP finally said "At this point you're prolonging his death rather than prolonging his life" - they agreed no more antibiotics and he slipped away peacefully a short time later.

A woman who lives nearby me is 104 years old. She is in her house bed bound, no quality of life. Carers go in, plate a sandwich for her (don't make sure she is able to reach it much less eat it) and that's that. She's on a hospital bed that is lowered to the floor mostly but raised to change her. She has four children who frankly don't bother with her and instead call her cleaner to assist her instead of making proper arrangements or helping her themselves. That's no shade to cleaner but it shouldn't be dumped on her (and it is). They won't put her in a care home though because it'll rinse the inheritance dry and can't be having that.