My DF85 and my DD13 - don’t know what to do

You poor thing OP. You’ve gotten some great advice here. Your poor DD must be so upset and confused. My dad has dementia and so far never inappropriate but he became violent . I don’t bring my DC to visit him in the care home as if it’s a bad day he is horrible . My mother unfortunately has her head in the sand a bit and doesn’t get why I don’t like the DC to see him like that. He was a lovely gentle man and we never witnessed any violence in the home ever. I’m so sorry to hear all the awful stories that others on here have experienced it’s such a cruel disease. Also and this might sound strange but I’m so glad that you’ve gotten so much support and understanding on here and no one is trying to suggest anything sinister about your poor dad.

Aah this is so sad. Dementia is a terrible disease.
OP my dad tried to kiss me on the lips, when he was in hospital and had dementia. It was the only time there was anything like that from him, he looked really confused. Usually he knew who I was but in that moment I think he thought I was my Mum young, I look like her.
I was really upset, not by the attempted kiss exactly but by the change in him and how upset he would have been had he realised. It was also a bit of a shock. He died not long after that, he was a lovely Dad and I try not to think of his last horrible year.
Obviously your dd can’t be alone with him but I think over time he might change again, and also that she will understand it isn’t him, it’s the disease. It is so upsetting when someone you love behaves in an unrecognisable way, she will probably feel shocked for a while but as she gets older she will be able to put it in context. As others have said, it’s very common but not talked about much.

I so sorry this has happened. Terrible for your dd and equally sad for your df. Alzheimer’s is such a difficult illness to deal with.
I do wonder if you need to check carefully with your dm about whether he has been more pushy in a sexual sense with her. Just in case she has had problems but not wanted to discuss this with anyone. If she has you probably need an assessment from the community mental health team for older adults. There are many reasons why this can happen in someone who has dementia, and they can look at causes / potential solutions.

This happened to me too with my grandfather, albeit I was in my late 30s. He thought I was my grandmother. I think you have had good advice here and I would just advise to tell her that she is ok to have very changeable emotions on this - I felt angry or tearful at him at times, then guilty for being angry, then at other times, I could be quite distanced and unbothered.

I would also consider talking to her school as she might get quite unexpectedly upset, as I did at times - but they will almost certainly raise this as a safeguarding concern so that would be its own issue.

I would also be cautious of letting her visit him with a male present, even if she wants to. My grandad thought that I (as grandma) was cheating on him with these men (my husband and brother) and could get distresed/angry at them. He actually ended up hitting my (adult) nephew - he was a very frail 80 something but he caught him off guard, knocked him to the floor and left him with nasty bruising. I didn't visit again until he had deteriorated so much he didn't recognise anyone, I didn't want to put anyone else at risk.

Hugs to you all and I am sorry you're going through this, it's tough as a mum and daughter too x

🙏thank you for your kind response - I am sorry that I dont sepcifcally remember if the commitment reduced, or if my Mum simply did things without my awareness. I know it was directly impactful in that my Mum could not drive ans my GF was not invited to our home it feel to others to drive my Mum to vist my GF...

I hope you are all doing okay 🌷

I realise my post might make it sound like I'm minimising it all a bit. But that's It not what I mean to do. I know from experience how huge it is when you're a young teenager, the shock of it to the wider family. I'm 30 years on from it all now.

I think in my case our family acted quickly with the kids of my age, explained really well about his illness and gave us all space to think and react however we wanted. Some of my cousins didn't ever see him again. No-one in the family ever tried to persuade us one way or the other.

I'm sorry that happened @BadGirlGoodGirl

I commented about my uncle earlier. This is how it worked out for us if it's helpful.

His behaviour got worse before it got better. He would walk into the library and corner shop and ask the women who worked there to come home and get into bed with him. Everyone in the village was laughing and called him a dirty old man. It was awful. He would have died of shame if he'd known what he was doing.

Us kids were told not to visit him alone, even the boys. He wanted to touch my brother and "feel his muscles". I saw him once or twice more with my dad but after another really crude comment I didn't go again for a long time.

My dad and his brother still visited but spent less time there I think and didn't take him out to football or church or anything any more. And their feelings towards him definitely changed. My dad was possibly more upset than I was about the things he'd said and tried to do to me. My mum was very level headed about it and helped me to be the same. My dad was definitely the emotional one.

My mum still went in most days with meals. She said she wasn't frightened by him, he was very frail, she said she could push him over with one finger if she needed to, and she seemed to be able to separate the behaviour from the person underneath. She had worked in health care so maybe she was better equipped, I don't know. And she was an adult.

One of my aunts went in to clean for him because his cleaner didn't want to come any more but she always went when my other uncle was visiting. Another aunt didn't see him at all.

The arrangement with paid carers were that they sent a man when they could and no-one when there wasn't a man available. This was 30 years ago so maybe they wouldn't be allowed to just send no-one now, I don't know.

He moved into a care home when he kept missing carer visits and he kept wandering off.

He changed in the care home. Whether that was another stage in his illness or the change of environment I don't know. He became a really quiet and rather withdrawn version of the lovely old uncle we all knew. All the sexual advances and innuendos completely stopped. It seemed unbelievable that he'd ever been that way. It was strange.

I started visiting him again with my parents and eventually on my own. I spent quite a lot of time with him towards the end of his life.

I think of him as he was when I was younger and I think of afternoons sitting with him later just watching tv and chatting a bit when he felt like it. I remember him being happy to see me when I came in to the care home in the old way he used to always be happy to see me. Not in an unpleasant way. I hardly ever think of the horrible times.

And I really do see now that it wasn't him behaving this way. It upset me at the time but years later I can honestly say it doesn't colour my memories of him.

I hope things work out for your whole family. It's one of the most upsetting symptoms I think, and something people so rarely talk openly about.

Unfortunately it can me a phase in Alzheimer’s- I was reading about it yesterday.
Don’t tell your mother unless you have to. She doesn’t need the extra stress. And he doesn’t know what he is doing.
It’s very upsetting but it is the condition not to person.
Your poor DD - you sound like a really good Mum and very caring. With time the poor girl will come to understand. But yes she can’t be left alone with him.
Have some time away from them and then recalibrate and continue.
Im on this path too with my DP - DF has Alzheimer’s and DM cancer. It’s simply awful.

I hope this message helps... I wanted to share that when I was 14, a very similar thing happened with my grandfather, when he was staying with us for a few days (my Mum was his daughter). My Mum was at work - and I was terribly upset but I was able to tell my brother who was fabulous - he rang and told my mum and I went into her office where she made me sweet tea and hugged me and told me I never needed to see him again. Where I had previously loved spending time with him, I literally never did see him again after that day and he was alive for around 18 months beyond that. Strangely, when my mum rang to tell me he had passed away- after a short illness and being in hospital - I was surprised how upset I became. I share my experience as a now 50 year old - because when I look back on it, everything my Mum did felt like the best thing she could do. She also explained to GF that he could never stay at our home again, nor could he come for dinner any longer as it would not be fair on me. My mum is no longer with us, so I cant ask her now, and I never did ask, but I imagine that must have been a really tough thing for her to have had to do; it was her Dad after all. I hope your daughter is okay - give her time to process what happened, and if she needs support please share with her that there are some amazing therapists out there that could support her. Incidentally, in my mid-30s I trained to be a psychotherapist.... Sending love and hugs to your family xx

Absolutely this. Your poor daughter.

I was also going to suggest perhaps requesting a chat with an Admiral Nurse via Dementia UK both for you and DD - perhaps they will be able to explain in more detail how the disease affects people and provide reassurance to your DD.

It sounds like she handled an awful situation incredibly well in the moment by getting herself to a safe place and contacting you.

It's an absolutely horrible disease. Maybe reach out to Alzheimer's charities for more information and support. You sound like a lovely daughter and mum.

Try and remember this isn't your dad, just another side of this awful disease. This won't be your DDs lasting memories of him if she can, with your help, separate who he really was before Alzheimer's.

The Alzheimer's society may have advice guidance or an advice line to speak to

But yes protect your DD and ensure care agencies are aware as they may need to ensure 2 carers

It is common for these things to happen with sexual advances but unusual for so young. But there will be agencies and best to protect others

I'm so sorry OP, what a difficult and upsetting situation.

I think perhaps your daughter could do with speaking to someone who isn't you, it must be hard to tell your mum something like this and I'm not sure I would even have wanted to talk to my friends about it at this age in case it got out at school.

Not now, but soon, it might also be good for her to look at pictures or videos of her and your father together, if you have them, so she can remember who he really was and what their 'real' relationship was truly like.

She's not alone, this happens more than you'd realise but people don't like to talk about it. David Baddiel's father had dementia and he had to stop his children from seeing his dad.

Please don’t hide this.
You need to tell all your family as they al need keeping safe and your DF needs further assessment. At the very least tell his GP Monday morning. . Also consider talking a professional about support for your daughter, please don’t underplay this and the effect on her. Also if she mentions in school she was sexually assaulted by her grandfather and you didn’t do anything then you’ll have a lot more input than you want.

Whilst it’s not his fault, it’s the dementia, the priority is protecting children and anyone else who is vulnerable. That may include your DM. So tell your brother and DM and explain that you can’t let your DD be alone with him any longer. That may affect what you can do with offering support, but the priority is your DD.

Does he have carers or any other access to women or children? Inform the care agency if so. Is there a social worker involved? This is the kind of issue that I’ve seen swing things in favour of a care home where it’s easier to manage behaviour and carers wouldn’t be on their own with him.

I think carers in care homes sometimes have inappropriate actions by patients as well . You did the right thing to tell your daughter that it is the disease but it is also right that she is not alone in his company again as is probably true of any female .
My friends mum is in a care home with it .
She was a typical , staid librarian type but now steers any conversation towards sexual content and will ask people including her daughter ( who she has never heard her mum say the f word ) Has she fucked today ?
it's a terrible illness .

My lovely, lovely uncle had similar behaviour changes with an advanced illness. This was years ago now. I still remember it but it's now a tiny part of how I remember him. I'm sure that will happen for your dd in time too. She'll think more about her lovely grandpa and less about this. This won't be her long lasting memory.

I hope you're okay op. Take some time to think through how you're feeling before talking to anyone. This is not your dad. You know that. It's another horrible manifestation of his illness. But it's hard to think that way when everything is so new.

Sounds like you've done all the right things, taken this seriously, supported your dd, explained your dad's damaged brain. That's all you can do. I sort of want to say to not make it a huge deal, while recognising that it is a huge deal. It's a tiny part of his whole life, his whole personality, his lifelong relationship with you and with your dd. This won't colour your memories of him for ever, even though it's massive right now.

Sorry you've reached another horrible milestone in this awful disease. It's not fair.

If your brother has children then you need to tell him immediately (safeguarding).

You need to tell him anyway but not as quickly if he doesn't have children, more in your own time.

Sorry this has happened, in time your daughter will hopefully be able to understand that it was his illness, not him.

What an awful thing to happen, I do feel for you.

I guess if it were me, I would try to focus on the practical elements. Going forward this means DD can never be left alone with her DGF - what does that mean in terms of the support you are currently providing? Do they need a care assessment to get carers in or is it time to think about residential care.
I would position it with DM and DB as factually as you can as an unfortunate side effect of his condition - which of course it is. It sounds as if you have a strong relationship with DD and you have done exactly the right things in terms of reassuring her and making sure she won’t be alone with DGF again.