Has dealing with elderly parents made you plan for old age?

I've just finished that @Defiantly41 - the audio version was very good.

Highly recommended. I nearly didn't finished at about chapter six thinking I knew it all but kept going, it's really good.

I’ve mentioned this book on another thread, but Lionel Shriver’s book Should We Stay or Should We Go? is an interesting take on this issue. Without too many spoilers, after dealing with similar issues relating to their own parents, and based on long NHS careers, the protagonists make a pact to go together, at age 80, on the grounds that it’s all downhill from there.

the rest of the book deals with their alternative futures where one or both does not go through it. A couple of the scenarios stray into science fiction, some all too real. It’s been an interesting discussion point in our book group, from “would you take matters into your own hands”, if so, what would be the trigger - chronological age? Physical infirmity? Dementia or other capacity issues? A financial trigger? Or if leaving matters to their natural course, what endeavours and support would you put in place and when?

But I also take a lot of heart from a PP who reminded us to also live for today and not sacrifice it to worrying too much about the future, for which I truly thank you (sorry, I can’t remember which PP to tag)

Talking of decluttering there was a really interesting section on Swedish Death Cleaning on Radio 4 the other day.

My husband spent several weeks in a Spanish hospital, shortly after we moved there. The nurses did expect me to feed and wash him, but would help with lifting and turning. It seemed the job of the nurses
was medical treatment and giving drugs etc. I stayed with him all day and night. There was a notice saying that if there was no one to stay with the patient they would get someone in and the family would pay! I spoke Spanish fairly well which certainly helped in some situations! They were kind enough, but it was very stressful and exhausting for him and me, as I couldn’t sleep well. It may have changed since the noughties. Care homes were few and far between, very expensive and understandably didn’t cater for foreign residents. We returned to the U.K. while we were fit enough to sort it all out, and I’m glad we did.

It has really made me think. Mum has been disabled by chronic illnesses since her 40s and is now in a care home. She has been really easy to deal with throughout, it is just the sheer quantity of sudden additional illnesses and hospital visits that is a killer.

I don't have kids and husband older, so very conscious that I will be navigating this alone. I will put everything in place that I can and accept all help has to be bought in. What worries me is having the capacity to organise it and being able to cope with it. Old age isn't for the faint hearted!

Thanks for your comments, but you are coming at this from the standpoint of the experiences of native Spanish residents. My DM has lived in Spain for 20 years and speaks fairly good Spanish but she is still seen as an outsider and treated accordingly. We have had plenty of input from local charities, care agencies and professional interpreters and they all agree that her experience is now pretty usual, certainly in the area she lives in. It’s a shame as attitudes seem to have changed drastically since she arrived. I now worry about the next time she needs hospital treatment and feel it is now time for her to move back to the UK.

Sending you much love ❤️

I cared for my mum at home and it nearly killed me. She would have hated what she became, and I fear for that so much, like you do. 💐

And am trying to declutter more, do strength exercises, etc. I make sure I never use a prop when I'm getting up after sitting or kneeling on the floor.

I fall down at POA and that side because I've no dependents or close family, and my executor is my second cousin. I don't want them burdened by what to do if something happens. That's an extra fear! And I really don't know what to do with regards that.

I'm sorry for your experience but it sounds as though you/your mother suffered from not understanding how things work in the Spanish system and from not having the right provision. My family are Spaniards and I've lost many elderly relatives and not one has had an experience remotely anything like this (well not since the 1940s). As I speak I have an elderly aunt in a residential facility and my cousins wife's father who has dementia is being cared for at home by a combination of family and carers. My grandmother and 2 aunts died in hospital and whilst there was plenty of family around, we did not provide nursing care.

IME that will change. The instinct to survive is strong, and when it comes to it you may well find that bedbound is better than dead.

DH was definitely one of the "If it end up like that shoot me" types, but he spent his last 12 months bedbound.

From an outside perspective he had no quality of life, but he still enjoyed a game of chess with DC, having friends visit to share a drink, talking about the news, watching a drama. He wasn't ready to die, even right at the end when he was in terrible pain.

I so agree. How many people have actually done this. It’s easy to say in reasonable health - that and saying put in a care home or shoot me before I go into a care home.

You could be completely healthy one day and have a catastrophic stroke the next day. Or something similar which requires you to be bed bound and hooked up to a drip. What then?

People make these ridiculous blanket statements without realising that there's a very good chance something will happen before they have a chance to "take their own life".

And if they have children or family, they are left to pick up the pieces and wracked with guilt because their family member has failed to have any reasonable and sensible conversations with them.

You are very rude and you have no idea what you are talking about. I have first hand experience of this over the last few months supporting DM with cancer treatment in Spain. Constantly criticised by health professionals for not being available to escort DM to all the almost daily hospital appointments, shouted at by hospital staff for not staying overnight in her hospital room after her operation. Interpreters had advised me not to as I don’t speak Spanish. Next day found DM left naked under a sheet having been refused food, water and bedpan despite her requests. Obliged to pee in the bed. Nurses refused to help me dress her to go home. So she had to go home wrapped in a dressing gown. Interpreters agreed this is not uncommon.

Go ahead and stick your head in the sand, you are heading for a rude awakening.

What a lot of twaddle. Did you get Spain confused with the remoter parts of Benin?

Family are not expected to do all elderly care in Spain - or, if they are, then my family never got the memo. There are excellent carers and care facilities if one can afford them. Culturally people do chose to do more but its by choice. And as for sleeping in hospital to do all a patient's care, you are no more expected to do that in Spain than in the UK.

Yes but a retirement village isn't a care home. And I'm in Scotland so can't speak for other areas or other local authorities but the retirement villages in our area don't provide 24 hour care and even the actual care they provide is very basic. They are forever on the phone to us at social work and people's families saying they can't meet the needs of people living there if they have increased to the point of needing a care home.

And also where I am, you most certainly can't move yourself into a residential home. Ours have quite strict eligibility criteria and they won't allow a healthy person to move in with no care needs as a way to simply avoid burdening their family.

Agree with this. DF was much more relaxed and content once he entered a nursing home as he felt safe and secure that there was always someone to help him with whatever he needed. He was constantly anxious in DM’s care as, hard as she tried, one person just couldn’t cope with his complex needs plus her own health problems, and he knew she was close to crisis.

No, I completely understand...I have to see first what is going my daughter's adult life going to be and then I will prepare all of it

I feel very guilty indeed about trying to persuade her to move “somewhere sensible” when all her happiness had been in the house she moved to in the50’s when she got married. We all gave her a hard time over healthy eating when she more or less lived on baked potatoes, cake and fudge for no really valid reasons.

All of these were expressions of care and love. Try to be nice to yourself.

One thing a friend advised me to do when mum was dying was apologise! Even if you think you have nothing to apologize for, do it.

So I did, I said sorry mum, for all the times I was selfish and a brat. She smiled, and then laughed. Then I laughed too. She died a few days later. That moment really stays with me for some reason.

It was an unusual but beautiful deathbed moment.

At least you won’t have the worry of running out of days allowed in the country to come back to help them. But have you thought about how your own DC will manage supporting you in a country they don’t have residence in? Unless they are moving with you or you all have EU passports. Do bear in mind the family are expected to do all elder care in Spain, even as far as sleeping in and doing all personal care during hospital stays. In patients without family to care for them are basically ignored by staff as it is not their job to carry out personal care.

Yes my DM said this to me in her 60s but now at the age of 84 she has decided that she wants to move in with me, and presumably have me as her carer, though we don’t have a spare room for her and I work full time. No sign of dementia she’s just been listening to her friends grumbling.

I hope I don’t end up as selfish and unreasonable in my 80s.

My parents prepped really well. Their attention to detail was something else, so the post will be long. It may be helpful to someone.

They changed the doors downstairs, making them wide enough for a walking aid/wheelchairs. The new doors could be opened by the touch of a finger at hip height. I should add that the doors they put in were French style with two sides closing in the middle, and made of glass so they could be seen through. They laid good carpets, and made the floors flush. All of this meant great mobility for them for the last 5-6 years.

They simplified all tech - phones, remote controls, the television placement and so on.
They had a really simple, but very effective system for bill paying - bills due in a box by the fridge and bills paid in a shoe box! They could always find things that way, they were in one box or the other. No complicated system that swallows things up (looking at you dh...).

They altered the kitchen a little - placed things in the upper cupboards for example so they did not have too much bending. They got light hoovers that hung on walls ( they viewed hovering and cleaning in general as exercise for mind and body). They changed a study onto a downstairs bedroom, and had a lovely, well heated shower room installed.

It was all elegantly done and did not look like a "modified for age" house at all. It was stylish and subtle.

They made the calculation that the cost of retirement homes etc would be higher than what they spent.

They refused to go to a home. They eventually agreed to a "cleaner" who came in to help them - lighting fires, making a little food etc. They also agreed, under duress, to cameras in the house so that we could make sure they were ok, had not fallen etc.

There was a small, old fashioned brief case under their bed. It contained all instructions - their solicitor, where the will was, passwords, an insurance thingy to cover all funeral costs including meals and so on - that was amazing.

They have both passed away now but I am deeply grateful, to my mum especially, for showing me a dignified way to approach this stage of life, one that facilitates their wishes but is also very considerate of her children's.

So, what happens if you become physically incapable of looking after yourself? Maybe you have a fall and crack a hip, can't cook for yourself, or get to the toilet, what then? You get discharged unsafely from hospital and you sit waiting for God? No healthcare service should* discharge you without a plan for ongoing care

• I say should, we all know unsafe discharges happen ALL THE TIME

And how will you do that if you get dementia? By the time it’s diagnosed you are highly unlikely to be able to or indeed want to follow through on your plans. Indeed from a fairly early stage of the illness you will have minimal comprehension of the level of support others are providing to keep you at home.
Its a ridiculous blanket statement to make. I mean if I knew I was going to get dementia like DM has now I would plan to kill myself probably at 80 as that’s when I would likely have enough agency left to do it. But I don’t know if I will or won’t get it and perhaps at 80 my life will seem more precious to me than the thought of being 80 now.

I think a lot of people don't appreciate the cost of care homes too. Even if you could just admit yourself because you are getting on a bit and don't want to burden your family / children, you need hundreds upon hundreds of thousands saved up if you are going to finance it yourself. And if you aren't, then the LA aren't going to pay until absolutely every other possibility has been exhausted.

Absolutely. I will take my own life before I become bed bound and hooked up to a financial drip to the benefit of a nursing home. I will plan my funeral in meticulous detail and pay for it in advance.

"You can't just admit yourself to a care home if there's nothing wrong with you". No, but if you can pay you can chose to live in a residential home or retirement village.