Guardian article today that might resonate here

@Daygloboo But isn't there a looming crisis in Japan?
Which basically boils down to too many old people, too few young people?

Sure. Of course. But not a wind up. My point is care needs to be better. Devices, inventions, creativity for quality of care needs to be better. See Japan. So much could bevdone with imagination and invention.

Care needs to be better. See my post re. inventions and devices to help the elderly. Check out Japan. The future of care.

If people suffer and want to die, it's up to them. But i dont want to live in an environment where becoming ' inconvenient' allows euthanasia to be normalised. Invention, engineering , creativity can go a long way to improving later life. Japan is doing some amazing stuff. Just one example. Falls really have an effect on quality of life. Devices and mechanisms to curb falls would go a long way to improving many situations, and that's just one example. Sophisticated harnesses in the home, mechanical walking aids that counterbalance stumbles when walking......all this must become part of the future. There is so much that can be done.

@Daygloboo - I don't understand your point?

Am sure you are on the wind up but on the off chance not, I am quite certain that you can understand that there are very sad circumstances (many covered on this thread) where it is a living nightmare caring for decades for someone with e.g dementia and all the issues that go along with that.

Erm, good? Genuine congratulations? Very happy for you?

Do u mean suffering old people or what

Dont understand.

I love and look after my very elderly father. And I am happy to do it. There. I said . Shoot me.

That was a good doctor, we need more like that. And the existence of morphine and sedatives means that a dignified and pain-free death can be managed, it's not that we expect people to die in distress from rampaging, unchecked infections.

I agree, it was a relief to most people and their families that this would see you off and put an end to any further suffering but even that has now been denied by the introduction of yet another medication that can counteract it.

Fine if you are relatively young and still have a life to live but grim if you are not.
Six years ago an aunt of mine was admitted to hospital with an infection.
She was in her 90s and still living in her own home with her daughters dealing with her day to day stuff which had gone on for some years.
She always said she didn’t want to go on and on and was ready to go when the time came.

The hospital staff were all ready to start pumping her with drugs when one senior doctor asked her daughters about her quality of life was like and what she would have wanted as an outcome.
Very tearfully they expressed her wishes and so it was agreed that no medical intervention would take place.
The infection took hold as she was gone within 24 hrs having been given pain relief (morphine) to make her comfortable.
Now that is the sort of end I would wish for and we need more doctors to have this difficult conversation with families to stop the excruciating, never ending medical interventions that seem to be routinely given to very elderly people.

It was a relief for my husband that my MILs decade long decline with Parkinsons was brought to a swift end with terminal cancer. Which feels terrible to say, but for her to die whilst she still resembled the person we knew and loved was a privilege as dementia was stripping away the last of who she was and for her any enjoyment out of life.

As death's go, it was a 'good' death, surrounded by her children in familiar surroundings.

I take your points @rookiemere
I don't want to make this about your parents but what I will say is that we are products of the society in which we live. We have all been given the message that life is sacred, ending ones own life comes with a stigma (understandably so). Organised religion has a part of play in that. Then there's the fear of death. The hope that the next treatment might help improve life. The finality of it all. We spend our whole lives trying to avoid death, it's no wonder people don't want to die even at the very end of their lives.
And as you alluded to, even when care homes work there's the fear, more so for younger relatives, of the money running out.

I don't think anyone's got the answers to get us out of this pickle sadly.

Assisted dying will almost certainly never include those who have dementia. I know there are attempts to do so but I think it’s unlikely.

I think it is a tragedy that modern medicine is keeping people alive long after their dignity, independnece and quality of life has gone.

I dream of a society where you could plan for your exit; save for it, adjust for any changes in health or circumstance, but ultimately, be able to say I am reaching the end of the road here and my chosen time is up. Imagine having control to decide that when the pension pot is largely depleted (since you have managed how long you want it to last), the kids have their own families/lives, you can no longer do the things you enjoy, you are perhaps housebound and lonely that the time has come to say my goodbyes whilst still of sound mind and go peacefully.

Yet, some out of touch Lords are blocking the euthanesia bill for those already dying in mental and physical pain. I find it barbaric. When my dog was ill with cancer, we carried on as normal whilst she showed some enjoyment in life. But we know when we had to put her down. It was the saddest day and I cried for weeks, but it was the kindest thing to do.

I imagine my DPs would have said the same thing when they were of sound mind. My point is that whilst I - as a healthy independent 55 year old - don’t see much value or enjoyment in their current lives, I doubt they would say the same if asked now or indeed 5 years ago when they might have been still able to consider the question properly. Now they are in the care home and rightly using their savings for it, I hope DF survives for as long as he still is enjoying it - mind you if he gets to 100 the funding could be tricky so hopefully he goes before then. DM is more complicated, she would hate to see what she has become but I don’t think she wants to die.

Its easy to say what you will do when you are extremely old until you get there, just as parenting is a doddle until you have one of your own.

My grandad tried to kill my grandma. Once he got admitted to a care home it used to take 4+ people to hold him down when he had decided to become violent. It was a living nightmare for all involved.

Quite. The medical professionals looked at me like I was suggesting chucking my relative off the roof when I questioned what this latest hospital admission was achieving. They always returned to the home much worse than they left, weaker, even more confused, and then we started the 3 or 4 week cycle again…quickest way for the home to make it someone else’s problem was to ring an ambulance. Even though we’d agreed no more hospital stays, at night with no senior staff about thats what used to happen.
It was such a relief when they died, but you can’t say that out loud

I don't think you should have had to continue doing or done anything you write about in your last paragraph @rookiemere
For me, I don't want to get to the stage where I need a care home. And I don't think many people do. I want the option of voluntary euthanasia. And I want involuntary euthanasia (to an extent). If I haven't taken the decision and I end up living with pain that can't be managed, or a life not worth living, and I'm too afraid to take the final step, I want people to do a quality of life score for me (I'd have done one myself previously and they can look at that) and to give me a lethal injection. I don't know how a system like that could work though. And it's a terrible burden to put on other people as well as risky. But is it worse than the current situation? I don't know.

I think we need to have a total rethink as a society about life and try to move towards people and domesticated animals having a good death rather than a bad one.

@MaturingCheeseball I think the kindest thing to do for that demented 75 year old man (I say this because he is an example rather than a real person, don't want to upset anyone) would be to put him to sleep as they say. So long as there was nothing that could be done to make his life worth living and for him not be so difficult and dangerous for anyone else. I think, if the younger him could see what had become of him, he'd agree. How do we get there safely is the question though. I don't know.

I fully agree with your comment.
I moved to another country, one of the reasons was not wanting to put my life on hold for (formerly abusive) elderly parents.

People who trumpet about caring for their parents have never faced dementia head on. It’s not a little dottiness. It’s a loss of the 24-hour clock (ie awake any time), it’s personality change - anger, accusations, nastiness - it’s double incontinence and all potentially without loss of physical strength. Mil in the mid stages of dementia was a big woman who was attacking the carers (who refused any more home visits). Imagine if you were dealing with a demented 75-year-old man? They could fell you if so inclined.

I don’t think the option of voluntary euthanasia would be much use in my DPs situation. Although DF is 92, he has settled very quickly into the care home that he was so anti going into and seems to have a new lease of life as he is getting regular meals with enough calories and hasn’t got the burden of caring for DM anymore.

DM is in a sorry state after we assume a series of mini strokes her mobility and speech are very poor, and due to osteoporosis, macular degeneration and dementia she does very little except sit in her bed. But as she was a doctor she enjoys a good medical intervention and she has not mentioned wanting to die and as she is now quite vocal about airing complaints, I assume I would hear all about it if she did.

In truth now they are finally in a care home a large part of the burden has been lifted, I am very glad and relieved that DF has settled but in truth they would still have had to stay even if he wasn’t particularly happy. I wasn’t particularly happy not being able to work much for a living, not being able to plan a holiday and not being able to enjoy my 50s the way they had been able to do. I went on HRT and was suffering panic attacks every time I visited because the situation was so untenable, anti depressants were next on the list.

I am not sure what other solution those against care homes have. Should I and thankfully DH have continued to shuttle up and down ever more frequently an hour away for their crises ? Should I - as some of my single friends have done - moved in with them or vice verse abandoning their own lives and losing their ability to go on holiday, out for the evening and sometimes even make their own living ?