Guardian article today that might resonate here

@thedevilinablackdress thank you for posting this

Having lost my 40s, or most of it, to this problem, I've got to to change things. Mum can't really go out without me. She does it occasionally if she really has to. But the main reason I don't like it is if she falls and breaks a bone, it will be my problem. I might have to be less available purely because she gets on my nerves so much. It's not her fault. She's a very nice lady. She talks about having outstayed her welcome and I know exactly what she means!

It's a really scary prospect that mum might just go on and on and on. It's bad enough already.

Last time I was called over there for an emergency, I was really struggling to hide my irritation. how many of these are we going to have? And they never result in the end.

I've already had a nervous breakdown in 2023.

I cannot wait to be able to turn my phone off at night.

I don't particularly care about dying at any point, but it's starting to feel extremely unfair that I won't get to experience this stage of life without a parent.

I used to post on the board here quite a lot. Now I don't because I try not to think about it. But I also get quite cross when people out and about ask me questions about how she is. It's just the same old same old all the time. She's sick of it - I'm sick of it. No one wins. But she won't stop taking her 10 million pills. So I could be stuck with this for the rest of my life. It's really sad.

I am 50. In many ways I have felt like I'm in the prime of my life for a couple of years now, especially after suffering anxiety and depression for years and years.

But there isn't a way to enjoy that prime with that kind of burden around.

I don't agree with that we need yet more expensive services - I think we need realism around what can be provided universally without destroying access to healthcare for the rest of society.

This.
And we should look at the whole NHS and see what healthcare we can realistically provide. As hard as that may sound, I think it necessary.

@tsmainsqueeze there are a lot of pet owners who would disagree with you.
Also, my idea may not be perfect or even workable and wouldn't go anywhere near solving the issue but I just feel something has to be done as you yourself admit, the current system clearly isn't working.

Read this earlier. Totally identify with it. I’m one of five kids , but only two of us do anything for my elderly mum and dad.
I am single and managing a house on my own , as well as a board level full time job with travel . I clean, do admin, shopping , banking and odd jobs on Saturday and supply the odd cooked meal for them (when I can) .
Without fail , my mum asks me every Saturday where I am ‘rushing off’ to , when I go to leave. Weekends I have to do my own cleaning , shopping , the gardens and life admin because I work very long hours in the week , so Monday to Friday. it’s literally work, gym ( either at 5.30am to fit it in , or after work) and dinner /bed.
I know I’m lucky to still have my mum and dad , mum has severe COPD and a slow growing lung tumour which is tough on them both . Love them both to bits , but God sometimes I feel like a hamster on a wheel.

My mum had me when she was 22.
She is in her 80s now, with no major health issues, but still very hard work - she thinks the world revolves around her.
And no, she hadn’t helped even one bit with the child rearing, claiming at the time to be too old for any of it.

I had my first DC at 42, and often think how glad I am that I’m 42 years older than him, and won’t be around forever to torture him the way my mother does.

What she doesn’t understand, and fails to acknowledge is: I am tired.
I have no energy left for her, after 45 years of working, and near two decades of single parenting .
My DC still need me , as young adults. They are my priority, which doesn’t go down well with my mother.
I love her, and for most part ignore her. Thankfully my siblings are willing to step in when needed, but even if not , I have reached my limits and have nothing else to give.

Good article. My poor MIL had a pretty miserable last few years. My DM, although quite content after years battling depression, spent her last years in a care home with no mobility and completely away with the fairies. When she died in her sleep I just thought 'Thank goodness for that'.

I have to admit that when friends say a parent has died suddenly and unexpectedly I think 'Lucky them, and lucky you' because the alternative can be pretty bloody awful for everyone involved.

My lovely DF is nearly 93, he lives independently, in his own house still drives to limited places (local town, supermarket etc) but he said the other day 'I hope I don't go on living for too much longer', he dreads losing his independence and a long slow decline.

I think there is a huge difference if you have actually experienced doing the caring/ running around/ arranging and transporting to appointments or if you are apart from it.

It's easy to get sentimental about your family members if you're not at the sharp end - if your life is not being impacted and either other family members are giving up their time/their life to do it - or other people (poorer women usually) are being paid badly to do it.

I don't agree with @mathanxiety that we need yet more expensive services - I think we need realism around what can be provided universally without destroying access to healthcare for the rest of society.

The article really resonated with me. DM (86) is now in a care home, supposedly on palliative care, but still has a good appetite and chats away - albeit in a rather anxious and confused manner. DF (90) is living at home with carers twice a day, but has medical appointments almost daily (which i usually take him to) some weeks and is struggling with his continence. Plus he wants to visit DM every day, so I end up taking him. Trying to organise alternative transport for him for some of the days. Plus shopping, household admin, financial admin, etc etc.
The will to live - however miserably - is clearly a very powerful force, though. Now, at 55, I feel like I wouldn't want all the medical interventions when I reach their stage, but neither of them seems ready to give up. DF was even agitating for DM to be moved off the palliative pathway. It seems wrong to me. Let her go naturally. It's selfish to keep her suffering because of how sad you are to lose her. It's heartbreaking really, the whole situation- both in my family and wider society.

You are wrong in thinking people want to live in care homes, affordable or not. In my experience, most who do live in these places and even most of the very elderly living very diminished lives at home, want to be dead.

Has anyone read ‘Should we stay or should we go?’ by Lionel Shriver? really interesting book if you can ignore her usual political introspection at times. Basic premise is a couple, having been through the caring journey with parents, make a pact to die by suicide at age 80. The book then explores various alternative futures in which one or both does not go through with it, and the outcomes (some of which stray into science fiction).

no more spoilers but it’s a great book club book and very thought provoking as to our own decisions in later life - where would you draw the line if you decided to do this? At an arbitrary age regardless of health? After passing some predefined goalpost in terms of physical or mental health? In a certain financial situation? Or some complex equation involving all those parameters or maybe others eg if children or carer support was needed at x level?

Our increased medical knowledge doesn't seem to have eased actual suffering. We can diagnose people earlier, which just means they know months, or years, in advance, what ghastly horrors nature has in store for them. And we're better at treating disease, which just means people are living longer in a shit, miserable state. If anything, our increased medical knowledge seems to have led to an increase in human suffering, not a decrease! The problem is, we know a lot, and we have new treatments, but we don't seem able to cure anything.

Also, people don't seem to be living any longer. My great grandfather lived to 89, his son (my grandfather) lived to 78, and his son (my dad) lived to 64. It's a myth that people in the past rarely made it beyond their 60s. Isaac Newton lived to 84 and he was born in the 17th-century! My grandfather lived next door to an old farm labourer, born in 1874, who lived well into his 80s without ever visiting a doctor.

I Myid lost both parents by the time I was 30. Obviously I didn’t want that, but being a sole carer (I’m an only child) of a parent w dementia or similar would have taken a massive toll. I saw what it did to my mum who had to take care of my grandma in her 80s. Her sibling lived abroad so it was all on her.
I know a couple of ladies in their 90s, two are in a home and one still lives at home but is very frail now. I just don’t want to live that old. DH does, but it’s not for me (and with my health I’ll no doubt pop off sooner rather than later). I don’t want to be a burden to my own DC either.
I know of two of my friends’ parents who are literally bed bound. Everyone is just waiting for the end. It’s miserable.

Reposting here what I said last night on another thread re this article.

Good article.

I have never aspired to longevity. My DF did - he wanted to live to 100. He has just over 8 years to go, and sometimes I think he will get there - as he seems to have plateaued in a state of mute immobility and total dependence on others for everything. He can move his head a little, and his right forearm - that's all. I envy those whose elderly parents are diagnosed with aggressive cancers and die within months of diagnosis - isn't that dreadful of me? But I can't help myself.
My DF's situation is horrific, and seems never-ending. He's in a nursing home so there's that, but I feel ground down by the relentlessness of his non-life. I first saw the signs of dementia when he was 80 - 12 years ago and the inexorable decline is traumatising.

Every single day, I hope for his death.

As for me, I hope to die like my maternal grandfather who had a massive heart attack at 80 and was dead before he hit the ground. And if I don't have his great good fortune on the death front, I don't want any death-prolonging treatment. No covid or flu jags, no one coaxing me to eat or spoon-feeding me, no medication unless for pain relief or comfort.

There's worse things than dying.

That's a case of very poor training and nonsensical reasoning by the nurses.

Not true ,i'm a veterinary nurse and my team won't hesitate to clearly yet gently tell the owner that euthanasia should be done.
I am experienced and have worked with many vets over many years ,there will always be the odd vet who finds this conversation difficult and so alongside an owner who is possibly in denial or absolute refusal to consider euthanasia the poor pet lingers on miserably.
A vet is able to take control away from an owner if an animal is suffering but it is a bit of a gray area and also thankfully doesn't happen often.
TaraRhu - maybe go and see the vet again ,this is not about your husband your poor cat could drag on in this miserable situation getting worse as time goes on until there really is no choice and you are left in a situation knowing you kept her far too long ,she deserves better and you will feel guilty , i have seen this too many times sadly.

I don't think we need Dr Shipmans of any stripe.

We need men to pull their weight.

We need adequate, well funded community care teams.

We need affordable residential care for older people who can't live on their own or with relatives.

When my relative was dying, the care home and district nurses were beyond reluctant to administer the palliative care drugs they’d been prescribed because “They’re very addictive you know” to my mind not a great concern when you’re not far off 100 and you've got a couple of weeks to go!

I don't think it's universally true that old people generally dropped dead without needing care above and beyond the care you'd extend to a healthy relative you loved, or that they weren't cared for by their families well into advanced old age. It certainly doesn't ring true for my (Irish) family.

One grandfather died in his 70s of cancer, well before I was born. The rest lived to 85, 89, and 93. All those long-lived grandparents lived at home and were cared for by their children / family in their old age. Two were pretty infirm when they died. One took to bed for the last two weeks of life.

The burden - yes, that is very much there for many nowadays, and it is an enormous problem. But let's not pretend it wasn't a problem before now.

In my dad's family there was always a designated 'minder' daughter, for generations, whose life purpose was to mind mamma, and in my mum's family, the older generations lived on the farm and were taken care of by the wife who married in.

We have moved on from women confined to the domestic sphere and denied choices, to women allowed to and encouraged to - and in many cases forced to - be wage earners, but the expectation that women will also shoulder all the family burdens remains, and not just relating to care of elderly relatives - women come home and do the second and even the third shift when they close that front door behind them, kick off their shoes, and whip off their bras. Cooking, cleaning, attending to school stuff, laundry, emotional support, getting up in the night when toddlers cry or kids are sick...

The rest of society really hasn't caught up with the reality of women's lives. I'm glad the issue is being discussed. I think it needs to be seen in its wider context.

Vets very rarely do @TaraRhu
That's why I think a pts vet would be useful.
I don't know how it would work but a vet who wasn't there to prolong life or offer treatment but to assess with a view to ending life. It's so hard for the owner and people frequently get it wrong. I'd try bringing it up to the vet yourself and see what they say. Good luck whatever you decide.

I really don't know.. she is happy enough and my kids love her. My husband doesn't want to talk about saying goodbye so it's all on me. Not fair really, want i really wanted was for the VET to suggest it. Then it's out of my hands

Too many people living too long, nurse of 37 years.
I’d lost both my parents by 44, FIL then died (after having chemo for 2 stage 4 cancers at 83..why?!) and MIL is in care so we are ‘lucky’ in respect of children having grown and never really having had any elderly care or responsibility. We holiday regularly in our early 50’s and live day to day with no worries.
The downside is we had very little help with childcare over the years which cost us thousands and missed having parents around and extended family get togethers at Xmas, Easter etc’.
My friends are really struggling now with overseeing parents but they had the benefits of them being around when we didn’t.
Is there a better?

@TaraRhu We had to make the tough decision for our old cat a few years ago, she'd had a whole host of health problems for some time, lost loads of weight and had had numerous tests which just came back as 'not ideal but not diagnostic either.' Finally she got ill one more time and the vet said, "We could treat this with antibiotics and she might keep going for a couple more months" but I knew I couldn't put her through any more. She hated going to the vet, always came home more stressed and unwell, couldn't understand being poked and prodded and pilled. So we chose to let her go, that very day.

When my grandmother was in hospital that last time, I often thought about how we wouldn't do that to a cat.

Sorry @TaraRhu but do you think your cat would want "a bit longer"?
I can't help thinking they may not given all the health issues.
I speak as someone who couldn't or rather wouldn't face up to the fact that my dog needed to be pts and she suffered as a result.
I would give anything to change that. It haunts me every single day. And so it should.

With regards humans, I think we need 'good' Dr Shipmans. But how the hell do we get there given what that monster has done and all the pressures on the doctors and the fears they work under of getting sued or struck off or similar?

I do wonder if we need a level of compulsion. As awful as that sounds. But if people, and their families, won't face up to the fact their life is only going to get worse and there is nothing anyone can do for them, and they keep thinking the next doctor or next procedure/test/pill is going to be the one to make them better, what do you do? Not saying it's the answer, it can't be, but what is? But I do think it should be the case for pets and vets should be able to compel owners to pts if the animal is really suffering and there is no hope.

I do think we need a massive rethink about the NHS and I think it needs to provide a basic service and if you want more, you need to pay. I also think doctors need to be given the freedom to be able to be honest with people. But what do you do when that person won't or can't take on the info they are trying to impart?

I haven't read the article yet, but I know the feeling in the sentence quoted about getting her life back and breathing a sigh of relief. I had nearly 20 years of caring duties, the only child in the family without children and female to boot, so guess who was the assumed carer? Full time job too simultaneously like many others.

Anyway I often wonder if any of us would refuse meds right now (I'm in my late sixties). I won't refuse at the moment, and I'll be really honest and say that as long as I have agency and am compos mentis then I probably still will take what's offered if it's helpful. It's all very fine to say don't medicate elderly people, but I think what is meant is don't OVER medicate them just to keep them alive.

I read this earlier and it resonates in that I want to move to my forever home and downsize but can’t all the while elderly mother is reliant on me to house her .

You've got the nail on the head.
Theres a real issue with lonlieness. This could easily be helped if there were better housing options for older people, and they were actually incentived to use them. Better, more affordable retirement developments with space to socialise and support, pre adapted. So much of the narrative is that you are 'loosing independence' but actually you are gaining it!! All politicians and experts say is 'stay in your own home'.. in many cases this is the worst thing you can do. It also mucks up the housing market with oldies living in family sized houses.

The second thing is preparation. On the day you claim your state pension you should be issued with a guide to older life. All the things you need to think about. Most newly retired are more than capable of getting their house in order at that stage.

Then we need to look at financing care. This needs to be made fairer. You shouldn't loose your house and life savings. The cost is a serious reason people resist care, they don't want to loose everything. Dementia care should be free or heavily subsidised.