Anyone share experience of intransigent parents who don't want to plan...

I’ve had to take the attitude that they didn’t want to do it and that was a conscious choice which I will respect, I have refused to give regular care. Ultimately my parents made an active choice about their own lives.

My parents are deeply frustrating and I have LPA. They have never planned for their old age, they don't now, they just expect everyone to facilitate what ever it is they want to do. So for instance, cleaning their house is too much, but they won't entertain a cleaner, expect family to just "run the hoover round" I can't begin to explain how infuriating they are. I'm venting 😕

Perhaps (re P of A) you could try telling them that if for any reason (e.g. stroke, dementia) they were unable to make their wishes known, or to possess full mental capacity) then in the absence of Powers of Attorney they would be subject to the tender mercies of Social Services - you would not be able to make decisions on their behalf.

Not to mention that financially, if they were to lose capacity, trying to deal with finances is a nightmare if a P of A is not in place. The office of Public Guardian then needs to be involved, which takes ages to initiate and is comparatively very expensive!

I don’t know about anybody else, but my (long gone) DM had a horror of any involvement of SS - she still saw them as ever needed only by the poor and/or feckless!

@LupaMoonhowl we have done similar in terms of sorting our own LPoAs and wills out with our adult children knowing exactly where the files are so they can have access to everything. We have also sat down with them and explained we have advanced decisions outlining what we want to happen. It may not all work perfectly in the moment BUT we have had an honest conversation with them and also have reconciled with each other that if nursing facility care is required then we accept it as being a sensible option.

Regarding the refusal to have carers in we have a similar situation. My mother has used every excuse under the sun including the incredibly manipulative’I don’t want strangers in my house they’ll steal from me’. My interpretation of this is ‘I want you to do it’. Well for a time I did but all she wanted was a platform to critique my cooking skills, cleaning standards and insult me by saying ‘well you are out of breath because of all the weight you have put on’.

Stepping right back was difficult as I like to think I am a decent person. But she broke me and even when she knew this she kept moving the goal posts of expectations. Some people are just not very nice.

Watching with interest because I cannot get my mother (85) to agree to LPA s she says it us ‘too expensive ’ (I’ve said I’ll pay’).
Meanwhile I’ ve set up LPA and Will for my sons have everything on a spreadsheet and all finances in s dedicated email address that they have the password to, and my IFA will help them through the practicalities. I’ ve also set up an instance policy to pay inheritance tax.
My friend’s 96 yo mother who is blind and deaf and on multiple medications refuses to carers into her home (or move in with a a daughter) so her three daughters do all the care on a rota which takes an enormous toll on them (she is rude/insulting/unkind). Refuses to go into a care home or have carers in as ‘it will cost money’.

@countrygirl99 so sorry to hear this. One of my siblings will send awful messages and it is impossible to have a civil conversation without him shouting at me that I am ‘unbelievable’. I have a clear conscience so whilst it is upsetting he has no grounds for the abuse. I have come to the conclusion he’s bobbed along merrily in life with regards to our parents and when the inevitable house of cards fell he was blindsided. I also suspect he smugly thought that as my DSis and I retired some time ago that we would just gradually take on the care and responsibilities. I am also aware he has lied to our mother’s GP and to Social Services. I have the emails from SS outlining what he has told them and it is a work of fiction.

As ever having stepped back I am trying to get my own health back to a good place so when the inevitable crisis comes I can manage. I get quite frustrated at the ‘oh aren’t you lucky to have them’ brigade. No actually my parents have been nothing but a constant source of worry all my life due to their own toxic relationship.

@BlueLegume that sounds very much like my family dynamics. I'm now NC with one of my siblings because his personality is so much like mum and he sent really abusive messages over Christmas trying to manipulate me.

Both parents here total head in the sand and will not do anything or even consider things for the future. My dad controls everything and gives mum housekeeping money and she has no idea about their finances. I did try and have a conversation with her about what she would do if he died and was firmly told she would stay in their big rural house and be fine. No understanding of how she would maintain it, pay for it or deal with bills etc that currently she has no idea what they are. I do know where their wills are but dreading it if something happens to my dad and their is absolutely no talking to him about it.

@PrizedPickledPopcorn I am quite of the mind the ability to be a decent human being is something my own mother has always struggled with. She has never been told ‘no’ and always controlled and manipulated situations to get things her own way. The consequence of that has meant she has no coping skills to draw on as she has never developed them.

I am sure that there is some cognitive decline. So she has no longer got the ‘energy’ to mask as you said. It absolutely is extraordinary. For me she revealed her true self to me when I was very young and she is the same person today.

One of my siblings is sure she is ‘ill’ but they had very little to do with her until about 10 years ago, they are also the golden child and they are also very like her personality wise. Support to all us bad daughters.

@BlueLegume it’s extraordinary how they behave. I can’t work out whether it’s a brain function thing, or whether they’ve just stopped masking with the semblance of ‘decent human being’, revealing the self centred person beneath. So manipulative.

I organised all the LPoA paperwork for my parents as they talked endlessly about doing them for years with the added ‘we’ll trust you to do the right thing’ but no sign of any action of doing the admin.

Whilst the Finance has been useful the H and W is not as our mother is deemed to have capacity so is free to make absolutely terrible life choices leaving us to pick up the burden. I have stepped right back and am tooled up knowing that it is better to feel guilt than resentment etc but the toll she has had on me has been awful.
She knows I am due to go overseas to visit on of my adult children and hey presto she dropped into recent conversation that ‘could you postpone the trip as I have been thinking WE could start to sort out the garage’. Said garage is packed full of stuff my father and her have hoarded for decades. When I said it wasn’t convenient as I have my trip booked she told me how disappointed my father would be knowing I am prioritising a ‘holiday’ over helping her. 🙄

Will go back and read after I’ve posted this, based on your thread title.

Do not step in unless it is an end of life crisis.

They have chosen the life they want to lead, let them.

And yes @lljkk before DPs declined very badly they were always about not being a burden and throw us in a home when we get too much trouble. Except now they are a horrendous burden and seemingly unable to comprehend this and very explicitly do not want to go into a home, so unfortunately forward planning often doesn’t count for much when it comes down to it. All I can do is refuse to do more than I feel I can and point out the gaps to them and to their social worker until inevitable crisis happens.

Both my parents did a POA for finance when they were in their 70s. We only recently did the health one now they are in their late 80s. We just said it was needed and we’d sort it, discussed the options with them and told them where to sign. However, they still live in a house that is completely unsuitable for them - too big and lots of stairs, no downstairs loo. They did talk about downsizing 20 years ago and looked at a few places, but nothing was right. Now it’s too late and they won’t consider it. I live 250 miles away, so it’s not easy to help out.

My DM (widowed) has a will in place but is reluctant to do a LPoA as she hates spending money, even though she has tens of thousands in the bank. I do worry how I'll manage her bills and stuff if she's incapacitated as not everything of hers is set up on DD. It's a worry.

The thing that concerned me in your OP was that you said your DM has a brain injury and memory problems. To be able to sign a LPoA you must have full mental capacity, show that you're setting it up by choice and understand what you're doing. Would your DM be able to do this?

What age are your DPs?
Mine thankfully sorted out their POA about 10 years ago long before it was needed, but I suspect had they not had it in place it would have been a different matter to consider when it looked likely to be needed. Maybe they are also put off by potential cost and if it will be complicated. If it’s possible to print out forms for them and make it simple then that might help.
I found as my DPs got older whilst an adult to adult relationship was where I would start, their executive functioning has become impaired so I would sometimes have to treat them more like surly teenagers or even toddlers to get things done.

Like some PP, I found my parents were better at "planning" when they were in their 50s than they are now (in their 80s). In their late 50s they downsized to a groundfloor flat, explicitly saying this was better place to live as they aged. This flat has a 2nd en suite bedroom where an agency carer could stay if needed. I'm finding any conversations about "how do we support you to have the best life possible as you age", I get replies like "I can't imagine that." I know all my dad hears is "You're feeble and can't take care of yourself". I am working on how to reframe my message to something they can hear as opportunity not depressing assessment. They didn't outright reject option of a PT live-in carer. I have a cousin I'd like to invite to act as a housemate to the disabled parent occasionally when my healthy parent wants to travel... I haven't figured out how to broach that convo yet.

There is a split going on because I think step-mum is ready to give up driving & just Uber everywhere; she seems to be refusing to ride in a car with Dad who will not give up driving until he is forced to. I don't want to talk about this openly.

They mentioned a friend who has moved into the very same assisted living place I secretly researched. My parents haven't been to visit Friend although they hear it's nice.... I suspect it's too expensive for them. Anyway, they wouldn't dream of spending their wealth on that place or any like it, whether they can afford it or not I don't rightly know. My dad was joking there must be regular resident poker games in there and he would like that aspect.

On paper, Their finances & wills are in good order, TG, but they seem to be in denial that they may need that wealth to pay for care needs. No way are they ready for convos like PoA.

I’m with @beAsensible1 - in a situation where people won’t make the decisions of an adult, fight fire with fire and make it more uncomfortable for them to keep avoiding the issue than for them to do it. And print the paperwork out, put it in front of them.

I have been grateful every day for over four years that my mother sorted out financial LPA. She wouldn’t do the health one so is stuck in a living death because for a long time, by the time we managed to argue the case that she should be under palliative care, she was being aggressively overtreated. (We’re finally past that stage but you would not believe how long it took or how many fights). I agree with doing your own and telling her about it, but definitely do the emotional blackmail if you have to.

What worked with FIL was telling him that if he didn't set up POA social services would be making any decisions about his care/money not family. He was on it next day!

No POA meant her home was haemorrhaging money as she was in a nursing home and we had no power to stop all her outgoings, insurances, WiFi, phone etc etc.
We needed to get the city council to defer the home fees.
it took 9 months to get guardianship so we could sell the house, to get guardianship is £800 if you pay a lawyer, I did it myself but it wasn’t easy, page after page!
We eventually sold the house but she had taken out equity release without telling us.
The whole thing was a shit show.
My mother was selfish and malicious.

Would you mind elaborating on what happened a little please as it would be helpful to use in our case.
Of Course if it’s too painful, that’s fine. Thanks.

Have you done your own LPA? Might that help - as it’s not something old people do, it’s something everyone does

I found framing LPAs as a form of 'insurance policy' helped to persuade reluctant elderlies.

'You insure your house and contents every year, Mum. Of course you hope you'll never have to use it but you still do it. It's just a back-up in case things go wrong. We can all sadly be involved in a car accident anytime - it just means someone could help out with paying your bills if you were in hospital'.

Also you have to use of examples of people they know who have either had the same experience and not dealt with or friends who had to deal with the paperwork.

we had recently lost quite a few people so it was very fresh for them. Which helped.

I know some people don’t like it, but I went the emotional blackmail route.

“I don’t want to be struggling with grief and sorting out your affairs. I’ll be all alone why would you leave me with such a headache. Don’t you love me? Why do you want me to have a hard life”

Squeeze out a couple of tears. Give a couple of examples and relatives. Then I just went on and on and on and about it.

sometimes in the middle of conversation I’d go quiet and when asked bring it up again…I was insufferable

a couple of times a month for ages. I got a brick wall for it bent but it worked eventually.

it’s immature but nothing else was working and I was at my wits end. Sorted now with some teeth gritting and tongue biting thrown in.