88yr old DM with Dememtia wanting to leave carehome to go home as being pushed by my Dad - what can I do?

I’m sorry not to be able to give any advice but I hope you can find an acceptable solution to your parents current situation…wishing you all a good outcome.

Depends on the urgency - anything that is routine and non urgent (e.g. deputyship for selling a property for care fees) there are long delays.

Anything relating to a personal welfare application such as this will be heard much quicker and as required.

I brought this up further up in the thread. I would certainly be raising this with the SW that his cognition seems to be in decline as part of the reasons that it’s not a safe place for her to be.

I’m also appalled that she broke her neck! That must have been awful. How can he possibly say it’s safe for her at home?

And telling her she’s not good enough is awful. Sadly it’s our experience that abusive men can and do get more abusive when they actually have to give care to their DW. DSIL said that she she thinks FIL viewed DMIL as the “Wife Appliance” avd once she developed Dementia and could no longer do everything for him he became embarrassed and angry.

I still think part of his reasoning to refuse Carers at home was because he felt embarrassed, it was nothing about making her life better and providing what she needed.

Unfortunately she declined massively during lockdown and we weren’t aware of how bad he had become.

You know how bad the situation at home would be, I’m glad you have the strength to look after your DM and go against your F’s wishes. It must be hard but it sounds as though you’re doing the right thing

Aren't there also long delays in the COP? I don’t know what they’re like now but the last time I heard it was 18 months to get a Court Hearing.

This is awful, and surely adds another element to the discussion about what is in the OP's DM's best interests.

It's not simply about her capacity to make a decision, but about the reality that she has suffered actual physical harm while previous being "cared for" by her husband. From everything that the OP has said, it seem that her mother has been at best dominated, at worst, abused, by her husband over the course of their marriage. This poor woman is probably now, in the grips of poor health and dementia, having a more socially fulfilling and secure life than she has had for many decades.

Has anyone asked the husband why he wants his wife back home? In what way does she benefit? And does he acknowledge that his actions caused her physical injury in the past?

@hatgirl I'm going to leave it here as it’s not my post to have a debate in and derail. It seems we both work in health or LA with experience of commissioning/MCA etc so we could go on forever.

@hatgirl hence my original post that OP requests another capacity assessment and a formal best interest meeting to lay everything out with all relevant professionals.

i didn't say anything about funding over riding POA welfare duties just pointed out that ASC/NHS can and do make best interest care decisions without it going as far as CoP if they are funding

Which is perfectly acceptable. It's not always appropriate to get everyone in the same room at the same time. It often can prevent some people from being able to voice what they want to say.

A series of conversations regarding a best interests decision with all the relevant parties is just as valid as a single round table discussion.

It also relies on a good quality capacity assessment carried out by a competent professional.

Lots of professionals throughout health and social care still don't grasp that capacity isn't just being able to communicate a decision. It has to be an informed decision based in reality and coming from an informed rationale.

It sounds like OP isn't convinced that the capacity assessments have been completed robustly. She might be wrong, but ultimately her role as LPOA is to act in a way that she believes in in the person's best interests. She is disputing the decisions of other parties involved and the outcome of the capacity assessment. That means the COP need to make the decision.

Funding arrangements don't override the duty of the LPOAs to make the best decisions with what they believe to be the welfare of the person at the heart of them.

I don't think the COP is a last resort, I think local authorities just avoid it if they can due to the paperwork and the scrutiny involved.

If their capacity assessments are sound they have nothing to be worried about.

i cant see that there has been a formal best interests meeting with all relevant parties just individual conversations.

Do you think your DF’s capacity is beginning to go?

Can you get an idea from your DM what home she is talking about? As others have said she may be talking about a different home, or different time.

Court of protection would be last resort and is a long winded process, you need good reason to remove the POA’s as not acting in best interests. The OP answered me and said DM was self funding so it all hinges on capacity. If the funder was ASC or CHC NHS and the DM is not deemed to have capacity they would make the decision based on the best interest meeting with all POA’s involved, which could be challenged but in my experience this is rare. If the DM is deemed to have capacity and as she is self funding she can choose to go home or stay where she is without a Dols

That’s a good suggestion . All you can do is write and express all your concerns and send it to both the care home and the SS. Then wash your hands of it all. If it goes tits up SS will have to sort it out.

It sounds like they have already exhausted the normal Best Interests process though from what the OP has posted.

Ultimately the two LPOAs disagree, the OP feels the capacity assessments are flawed (perhaps on the informed decision part of the decision) and there also appears to be a dispute/disagreement about P's capacity relating to the decision.

'Off to court we should go' in the words of my most favourite local authority lawyer.

Keep fighting for what’s right for your mum and dad. The SW are keep to save money if people are cared for at home.

you know better than anyone how your dad will or will not cope.

it’s even harder when you are the only child and the only one to make these decisions. Im also an only one and have to make these decisions for my parent. It’s tough. The hospital have tried to send my parent home knowing I live nearby. I have fought this as they need more care than I can give and do not trust SW to provide a package of care that they need.

I’m really not sure that the ultimate decision maker would be the Court of Protection @BlueandWhitePorcelain? I thought that would be the case only where LPoA wasnt in place and deputy ship was therefore needed, or perhaps where the different attorneys couldn’t agree, or am I wrong about that? Of course that might happen here, but I wouldnt underestimate the benefit of a true best interests meeting - it is amazing how getting into a room together can help thrash things out. I wonder about including the GP in that meeting - my experience is that GPs are nearly always helpful in these situations though I’m sure it isn’t always the case.

This is a dispute between two LPOAs, the local authority and the person who's capacity is disputed, and therefore should be referred to the Court of Protection for a decision.

You can make a section 16 welfare application to the COP- information about how to do that:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b17ef4be5274a18e5ea851b/cop-gn4-eng.pdf

Yes my mums husband is like this, abusive awful.
Some great information here. Hope she can stay. Home would be completely unsuitable,

My mums husband was also abusive and plausible, She had a fall and instead of getting an ambulance he got the neighbour to carry her up to bed. Then he was boasting about lifting her on a saucepan to go to the toilet. Moving into a care home literally saved her life. Your mum only has you to advocate for her. I know it is hard to go against your dad and social services but you will be avoiding a disaster for your mum.

Op it's always worth consulting a solicitor who is fully conversant with capacity and community care issues. They are very good at cutting through the 'crap'.

Is there any way that you DF could go to the care home too? What is the classification of the care home? Would he meet it? We have a lovely elderly couple from church, both in their 80s. Wife (W) has several health problems to do with her heart and breathing and needs a lot of support with daily living tasks. Husband (H) is basically pretty fit and active and can do everything independently, but was finding being independent for himself, plus all the housework, plus seeing to W's needs between carers' visits, way too much.

They ended up both moving into a care home where they have rooms next to each other. In W's room they have a double bed, wardrobe, chest of drawers, and W's medical stuff + adaptations to the ensuite bathroom. In H's room they have a some comfy chairs, a desk and upright chairs, and some other home comforts. They spend their days together in their sitting room, or in the care home lounge, going for walks etc. While W sleeps, H can go off for a longish walk or help with gardening in the place, knowing that other people will look out for W. Or he can be in their sitting room and read etc. When she's awake, they do stuff together and the staff will help with pushing W into the grounds etc if H is tired.

Imo, if DM is found not to have capacity, then the ultimate decision maker would be the judge in the Court of Protection. DM would have the Official Solicitor acting for her (in reality a local firm of solicitors acts for DM, in consultation with the Official Solicitor) the LA would be another party to the case, DF another and OP - ie 4 parties. The care home might be asked if they want to join in the action. They can refuse. However, the care records would be required for the case.

OP could represent herself, she doesn’t have to have a lawyer. She can present her views, as expressed on here, as to what she considers to be DM’s best interests.