Combining property with (adult) child and care home costs

He may fondly imagine he would enjoy giving up work and being your DMs full time carer, but the reality will be unbearable and I doubt he will do it for more than a few weeks. If they do go ahead, expect to be called to look after DM frequently so they can go on holiday and - sooner rather than later - being expected to look after her full time. NB I absolutely think full time carers should have breaks, but everything needs to be agreed in advance.

There are people who do it, and it can work. I would start by assuming he does have your dm’s best interests at heart; all things being equal, many people would prefer to live with family than go into a care home, and mutual benefit isn’t a bad starting point. So start from the point of view that he does overall have good intentions towards her, however unpleasant he is to you and even with comments about how much he’d like to give up work. You know him and it does sound as if he’s taking this on based on limited information.

What is pretty crazy is that it could potentially save the country a fortune.

It’s a huge risk however given her diagnosis and the fact that it sounds like she’s still quite early in her deterioration and he’s very clearly not fully taking in what dementia care 24/7 actually looks like. As above, he could end up losing his home. Downsizing is not easy.

In my area,£1000 a week is incredibly cheap for a nursing home, especially for dementia care. My mums home is pretty shabby but good, and it’s over £1600 a week. Be very careful about annuity costs - I think I did look into it briefly and mum didn’t gave enough cash.

Id contact Age UK and see if you can face a group meeting with one of their advisers - if they do this paid service in your area. Make sure you all hear the pros and cons together.

@tooldforicy what you need is a legal agreement putting in place as part of this you need to think through life cycle events. These can be hard questions that might make your DB think:

• what happens if DB or partner dies?
• what happens if DB or partner have a serious illness/become disabled?
• what happens if DM does need a care home?
• who will fund carers for DM if all her money is tied up in the house?
• Will DM be expected to contribute to household bills? If so how will this be calculated?
• what is DMs legal status in relation to the house I,e does she have a beneficial interest?
• Would DM be legally entitled to a formal eviction process if DB wants her to move out?

It is a really bad idea for many reasons and should be discouraged. Looking after someone properly with dementia is hard work and very stressful. I've just stopped after doing it for six years living in.

Whatever action is taken, please ensure you have PoAs in place for H&W and Finances before capacity is lost.

I guess most of that £250k would be swallowed up with current annuity prices which probably rules that out.

Has your mum set up poa and if so is it activated?

Make a bet how long db will last before realising the reality...dementia care is 24 7. Then there is organising the help etc . I guess if he happy to try....but dont engage wirh his criticisms of you

his view is that this is just down to me not planning or explaining things to her properly.

Just say "ok d b. "

This could well be seen as deliberate deprivation of assets. Go to AgeUK's website and read their factsheets. Excellent information about how care is funded and DoA. Facebook group called Safguarding Futures - tons of information and advice there.

Normally when people combine to buy a joint home, they are willing to care till the end, a huge commitment. It sounds like your brother wants the best of both worlds: your mum’s money for a bigger house AND putting her in a care home when it gets too much! Loads of potential problems down the line coming…

This will 100% be classed as depravation as assets with an existing diagnosis if your brother cannot cope and a care home is required down the line.

You say you don’t expect to inherit but there must be a decent amount in the house value so why not look at a care annuity now see how that compares.

You can find specialist financial advisors to help.

This is an example with my Mum in 2020.

House sold £800k no other assets.

Care annuity quote for Dementia and epilepsy at 88 years old. £140k

Care home fees at £1000 a week paid partly by the annuity and partly by her pension. Annuity is inflation linked.

Remaining £660k has been invested and returned over £150k since so effectively mums care has been for free at this point.

Is there a POA in place?

As she already has a known condition that reasonably will require increasing levels of care they certainly would consider it a deprivation of assets if full time or domiciliary care was sought via the council in the short to medium term, in fact unlike inheritance tax there is no set number of years they can back track officially but 7 years is a good starting point - is she likely to need professional care within 7 years?

a compromise is only using half her house money to fund a larger home (or less) to keep money in reserve, or better still no money changes hand at the move but you dm pays monthly rent for her room and board for the food etc. they can then buy in domiciliary care if and when required which keeps her at home longer, if residential care is required having some money means you can act quickly and sort the council funding later

Db is delusional unless he has experience of geriatric care
As pp said is he up for dealing with her incontinence, her sundowning, the endless medical needs, the inevitable falls, and the daily toll of a loved one with dementia?

This gives a broad outline of some of the pitfalls and complexities of a proposition like this

https://www.thegoodcaregroup.com/care-advice/can-i-gift-my-assets-to-avoid-care-fees/

Does he realise how much work it will be?

What happens when she can’t be left on her own, needs personal care, can’t manage the toilet etc?

Where does your mum want to move to, as you say she has capacity and she no longer wants to live alone at home?

I'm not sure your brother necessarily has formed a nefarious plan to get his hands on more property equity; you say he is angry that you won't live with your DM, so maybe this is just a petulant reaction to what he thinks should be happening.

Selling two properties and buying one could easily take 9-12 months in the current climate. Especially finding one to buy that has facilities for your DM with reduced mobility, and is big enough for all the family to have their own space.

I think in your shoes I'd mildly and calmly let your DB know that you've done a bit of reading online and you think that deprivation of assets would be an issue in future (by text as well, so he can't pretend you didn't say it). Arrange for carers to pop in for now, and visit a couple of homes with your DM to see what she thinks and open lines of communication with them. This can be 'just for now' and 'just as a backup plan'.

If you don't make it an issue to fight over with your DB, and the months go by, and his DW sets her boundaries about what care she is prepared to provide, I would expect sense to prevail.

As someone who had to move their MIL in with their family to provide care it is a hard slog. In our case her family home wasn't sold and has only been sold after her death and split between her sons as inheritance.

She lived with us for a bit more than 6 months (cancer not dementia). It was a very hard time even with external carers coming in towards the end of her life.

He really does need to consider the impact on his on life / family including suitability of proposed house (stairs etc), emotional impact on any children being much higher when they die, are they happy to have her die at home? Medication administration and storage, disruption of nurses / carers coming in and out. Is your mother understanding/ accepting her diagnosis and forecast? My MIL never did so we were always playing catch up as she wouldn't accept any help until past the point where she absolutely needed it and no matter how hard you try it often takes weeks for things to get set up.

How old is your mum and do either of you hold LPA? Your brother has no idea how dreadful it can be caring for a person with dementia. The wandering, the delusions of being treated with violence, double incontenance are just a few.

This is exactly what happened to my cousin. They got a letter from the LEA before the funeral had taken place and two weeks later the house was on the market. The whole thing was a disaster and my cousin had to quickly get rid of her mother’s possessions because their house was for sale so quickly. She had the death of her ,other and moving house in the space of weeks.

Quite so.

I would expect anyone working in your DM's best interests to ensure that a chunk (if not all) of her assets were kept aside to fund in-home carers if she doesnt want to go into residential care.

If your mum already has dementia then I would be ensuring that your mums capacity unsaid the sale of her home and and the implications , is formally evidenced …. It’s not a matter of saying …..do you want to move mum and her agreeing….that’s not informed consent

So your mum gifts him all her assets and he provides 100% of her care needs.

Quite a risk he’s taking on there. He is prepared to deal with her incontinence, her sundowning, the endless medical needs, the inevitable falls, and the daily toll of a loved one with dementia?

And he agrees to pay 100% external care costs that do arise, be they visiting carers or care home costs.

As you say he’s in denial about how things might progress I suspect this is a recipe for disaster. Has he spent a week with her 24/7 recently?

A colleague I work closely with did this. Unfortunately the health of the parent deteriorated more rapidly than they were expecting, and they had to move into a care home around 18 months after buying their shared home.

The council did indeed come after the parent's share of the house, and, as my colleague couldn't afford to buy them out, they were forced to sell and downsize. So all in all it was very stressful and expensive.

I am sure this could be seen as deprivation of capital and I have seen families not getting any contribution towards care home fees as they are still treated as having the money. You need proper advice but looks like mum already has care needs.