At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

I’ve found that “food can be delivered” only works if the person will open the door to people…

Interesting. So SIL, if she doesn’t want to do these things any more, should contact SS and they will take over all of it?

I would expect the care manager to raise a safeguarding concern. Carers can do laundry, shopping and housework if asked and it's in their contract, it might cost extra so you get reassessed for your needs. Food can be delivered and there are many delivery services.

There was no food, house was a shit hole, his clothes were all caked in shit.

This is where one of the big gaps is for many older people who stay at home. FIL is at home with carers coming three time a day. But if my SIL wasn’t willing to do his shopping and drop it off, keep up with his laundry and make sure he has clean clothes / sheets, and clean his house, the carers absolutely would not.

if a family member isn’t willing / able to do all the housekeeping, whose job is it?

Is that for the LA to be deputies? You can approach local solicitors if the person without capacity has sufficient assets - most larger firms will have a department who will be happy to be deputies. If not, friends and family can do it, they just need to be able to complete reports etc.

For what it is worth we were quoted 9 months. We asked for ours to be an urgent case and it was awarded in 4 months. Others I know have had long waits though so I am not sure there is any rhyme or reason to it. But you may be lucky.

It sounds like the only thing you can do is keep reiterating to SS and the hospital that a discharge before access to money is sorted out is unsafe.

Yes - but payment is delayed until finances are sorted out

Both govt and (sensible) care homes have to ensure they act within the law around finances though, @TheGentleButFirmMadonna .

LA says there’s a two year wait for them to apply for deputyship, which is our only option.

Two. Years.

Surely all mentally incapacitated people get some form of others caring for them despite the amazingly difficult bank set up. There is money!! The government and care homes will gladly take it

Perhaps slightly more helpfully:
I rang Dementia UK for advice. They said it was quite unusual, but they thought if necessary the LA would have to buy him food and set up some kind of deferred payment system as sometimes is used when someone enters a care home.

I think it’s unusual to find a vulnerable person who both has no one with POA/ deputyship, and has income other than benefits ie from private pensions, therefore it is impossible to have an appointee.
Although I note a PP said you could have state pension / AA paid separately somehow so that they could be used for essentials? But the helpline didn’t seem to think that was possible.

Mini *safe, obvs!

OP I utterly understand as I am in a similar situation.

ss have this batshit plan - only voiced when I kept asking “But how is he going to buy food??” - which involves a carer, whom he may not even have met before at this point, taking him to his bank branch to get his debit card unblocked. IF he succeeds in remembering his security details / they manage to find a way via him bringing other ID docs etc, they can then get him with drawing cash from an ATM. That’s if he doesn’t straight out accuse the carer of being about to steal his money whilst in the branch.

Their plan to prevent him then proceeding to do what he’s done twice in the last two years with us, viz. then using his card online or in the village shop and inputting wrong codes so that it gets blocked again? They make him lock his card in the mini sage they are planning to install in his home, so that he can’t access it alone.
I was informed if he didn’t agree to this it would become a “best interests decision” and he wouldn’t have any say in the matter.

I told them I’m going to sit back and watch, because it will fail.

He’s already got police involvement for quite seriously threatening neighbours.

Op has explained that a) she lives at a distance so cannot just take her relative to the bank when she wants to go and b) her relative may or may not consent to being supported in that way anyway as she has a tenuous grasp on reality, and believes that she will be able to travel by bus or is about to become a millionaire so won't need to.

Sadly, even with a dementia diagnosis, it can be desperately upsetting and very hard to access social support for someone who does not, or cannot, grasp how much help they need, nevermind for someone who does not have a diagnosis.

This or drive her to a cash till and let her withdraw
The main problem is they don't even have a card.

Sounds like you step back and let the chaos ensue. If there’s nothing you can realistically do, what else is there - she needs to fail, so SS step in with a workable solution.

The hospital said that they would send our elderly friend home with a bag of groceries. It turned out to be two big bags of tins that they had collected from the food bank. Not a very helpful solution - but at least they tried to help!

My Dad was diagnosed terminally ill OP and there wasn't time to sort out POA or any form of accessing his bank account. Thankfully he was still able to give consent over the phone so we rang his bank, explained the situation and registered for online banking. That way, I was still able to access his money and pay his bills. He also ordered an additional card that was in my name.

@roundaboutthehillsareshining I had this with DM. You can either apply for appointeeship (wasn't an option in our case as DM was adamant she was fine) or tell Social Services they have to sort.

They have dealt with this before so don't let them fob you off. If they have deemed she cab be discharged just quote at them it is neglect to leave someone at home without access to money for food. And raise a safeguarding alert.

I know the system is stretched but it criminal just assuming the family will pick up. No one can fund a second household at short notice for 6 to 9 months which is what the delay is on COP near us.

This or drive her to a cash till and let her withdraw some cash she can give you or others to get her what she needs. My Aunty was in a similar situation she had capacity but physically couldn't get to bank and she would not trust internet banking or putting card details into supermarket site. She would use a cash till but only the one outside her bank. My sister used to drive her over in the evening when it wasn't busy and help her out to use it. She got enough cash to pay for things. Sometimes she gave me sister cash for something and she'd order it online on her card then.

Carers should make the safeguarding referral if she has no food in the house, but so can you. Sadly you may have to wait until she is home to hit that button, but do just that. You need concrete evidence of her inability to cope. The system just isn't built to manage complex needs like this in abstract. You have to show them what her life is like without you propping her up. (Have supported elderly and very strong minded relatives before, who will say black is white so convincingly. Ss have to see the evidence - and then may take some convincing. (She will say that relatives are coming with food tomorrow. . . You may need to pre-empt this.

A letter to her GP explaining that you know she is unable to access shops/food and is in imminent danger of starving may help. State that you know for a fact that relatives are unable to provide for her, that she has no access to her money but that she is proud and will deny this and say she is getting help. Safeguarding is everyone's business. Her GP should be able to then make the referral.

Don't worry about the utilities etc for now. Let the red bills build up as evidence of her lack of ability to cope. Sometimes you have to let things get worse in order to highlight the need for help.

Get a message to the gardener that she can't pay him at the moment and let him decide he will have to stop coming, until she's sorted out her affairs. Don't tell him yourself that he has to stop coming. Let him decide.

Obviously you don't want her to starve, so if you live a long way away, you can send her a 'Welcome home' package of a few essentials - cup a soups, a packet of pasta (if she will eat it) a loaf of bread . . . But not too much or it will appear that her cupboards are well stocked.

It's an awful situation. Put your hard hat on, take a deep breath and try to get the system to help her. You cannot do it all yourself.

The only thing you can do is speak to the discharge team about having no access to money. This might be an occupational therapist or a social worker depending on the set up at the NHS trust. I would also recommend speaking to the ward manager.

I work on complex geriatric ward and we deal with these kind of scenarios (and similarly bonkers ones) a lot.

Discharge process is slow and frustrating the system (where I am) is both broken and completely overloaded.

Feel free to msg me if you want to ask more specifics.

We are recently in this situation and my relative was simply taken to a secure unit under a DoLs and held there until a care placement was found (6 months later). They wanted to go home too but without capacity, no power of attorney, no-one willing to be deputy in the family, and no family nearby or able to pay for them it is not possible for them to go home with carers. Make it clear to social services there is no one who can do this, she will be without food and essentials. This can't happen, going home isn't an option.

Food is the most important.

everything else can and will wait. As she gets debt collection letters you call and explain you’re awaiting a deputyship order. If a solicitor is applying for you, they may do it. A deputyship application can be put together at home within a week or two. It’s intensive but it can be done, and then you submit - it can take up to a year but has got faster. It’ll take a good 5-6 months before things get to the stage of CCJs.

and frankly, it’s not the end of the world if it ends up that far. It’ll get paid as and when. Nobody is going to turf her out overnight.