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Elderly parents
Original poster

At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

233 replies

roundaboutthehillsareshining · 22/07/2025 08:39

So my elderly relative is being discharged home with a care package. Fine, it's what she wants and it's the least restrictive option, so it's got to happen this way (even if it falls apart in a few months and she ends up back in hospital for 6 months). Anyway, there's nothing physically wrong and no dementia. Her team believe she has a new functional MH condition, but that can't be diagnosed in hospital and she won't engage with community care, so that's a dead end.

However, it's likely she's going to be found to lack capacity to manage her financial affairs. Her bank account set up is hopelessly complicated (at her choice) and can only be administered in branch, which she's not going to be able to access.

So if she's at home, and unable to access money, how does she pay for food etc until the deputyship comes through? The family can't afford to subsidise her, she isn't eligible for benefits as she's got money coming in, she just can't access it. So what happens? Anyone been in this situation before?

OP posts:
marshmallowfinder · 23/07/2025 22:55

Am I missing something? Why can't she be driven/gey a taxi to her bank to withdraw a large chunk of cash to keep at home to pay for things as she has previously?

Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 22:43

Ilovethewild · 23/07/2025 22:25

If you are in UK

  1. SS do expect family to help. You need to be clear that you are not applying for COP or LPA. Tell SS they have to and they will, they can manage someone’s money quickly and provide weekly income and sort bills, they have a team who do this.
  2. SS will apply for and get AA for her as if she needs carers she would likely meet the criteria. You don’t have to list specific diagnosis, symptoms are ok too. Appreciate she wouldn’t want to, but if assessed as lacking capacity in this area SS will do it. Anyone who has financial assessment as part of care package benefits are explored as standard. She may need to be paying for care longer term so this is usual.
  3. dealing with all this is complex and challenging when it’s family, but you only have to take on what you can and not take on more even if the need is there, you don’t have to meet everyone’s needs yourself!
  4. SS will not talk you through all this, get advice from experts like age Uk, MIND, Etc
  5. make it clear that person will be at risk with no access to funds to buy food etc. put it in writing, make it clear you and family can’t help.

I'm not sure she will. The AA form seems to specify care required for the last 6 months, which it hasn't. It asks about illnesses, disabilities and medication - we don't have anything to write in that as she's not on any medication and has no diagnosis. It asks for support in showering/bathing - she can't access her shower and SS know this, so that doesn't apply. She doesn't have a washing machine or means of doing laundry, so not sure how much the clothing questions will apply, she doesn't sleep in a bed as she can't access the bedrooms, and she doesn't do anything outside the home so none of those questions apply. I genuinely don't know how we'd fill out the form so that she'd be eligible....

Yes, SS are aware of all of this....

OP posts:
JanglyBeads · 23/07/2025 22:42

So if she's about to be found without finances capacity, maybe someone (LA?) can apply for benefits hitherto unclaimed and they can act as appointee and pay her bills?

Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 22:31

TheGentleButFirmMadonna · 23/07/2025 22:27

I re-read your original post. Who is the elderly relative and why do you think she cannot manage her own financial affairs if she did just before going to the hospital. No dementia, no physical need. What exactly has gone then and what is going on? There is no precise detail in the post. Just a claim that you know that this person cannot manage her financial affairs. These are too many claims without a single proof or documented opinion of health and social care. You don't have to take the person in your home if you don't want to. Seems she does not want contact with you either and her own opinion about mental health professionals and banking are really her own opinion and she has right to that. The whole thing is weird

Yep the whole thing is weird. And obviously I'm not going to into all the details of the relationship on a public forum. However suffice to say this person is a close, but not immediate, family member.

It's not me who thinks she can't manage her affairs, it's her Mental Capacity Assessor (as defined in the MCA 2005) who is going to make that determination. The assessor has already found she does not have capacity to manage her health and wellbeing affairs, we are all waiting for the final reports on financial capacity, but expect it to be the same.

OP posts:
JanglyBeads · 23/07/2025 22:30

JanglyBeads · 23/07/2025 22:25

And what if the person doesn't have sufficient funds, and there are no family or friends prepared to take responsibility?

Sorry that was in reply to the pp who stated that these were the only two options.

TheGentleButFirmMadonna · 23/07/2025 22:27

I re-read your original post. Who is the elderly relative and why do you think she cannot manage her own financial affairs if she did just before going to the hospital. No dementia, no physical need. What exactly has gone then and what is going on? There is no precise detail in the post. Just a claim that you know that this person cannot manage her financial affairs. These are too many claims without a single proof or documented opinion of health and social care. You don't have to take the person in your home if you don't want to. Seems she does not want contact with you either and her own opinion about mental health professionals and banking are really her own opinion and she has right to that. The whole thing is weird

Ilovethewild · 23/07/2025 22:25

If you are in UK

  1. SS do expect family to help. You need to be clear that you are not applying for COP or LPA. Tell SS they have to and they will, they can manage someone’s money quickly and provide weekly income and sort bills, they have a team who do this.
  2. SS will apply for and get AA for her as if she needs carers she would likely meet the criteria. You don’t have to list specific diagnosis, symptoms are ok too. Appreciate she wouldn’t want to, but if assessed as lacking capacity in this area SS will do it. Anyone who has financial assessment as part of care package benefits are explored as standard. She may need to be paying for care longer term so this is usual.
  3. dealing with all this is complex and challenging when it’s family, but you only have to take on what you can and not take on more even if the need is there, you don’t have to meet everyone’s needs yourself!
  4. SS will not talk you through all this, get advice from experts like age Uk, MIND, Etc
  5. make it clear that person will be at risk with no access to funds to buy food etc. put it in writing, make it clear you and family can’t help.
JanglyBeads · 23/07/2025 22:25

And what if the person doesn't have sufficient funds, and there are no family or friends prepared to take responsibility?

Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 22:19

justforthisnow · 23/07/2025 22:12

Can I get a brief explainer from anyone who knows as to the assessment for determining lack of capacity and who decides or assesses that? I'm not in the UK so I dont know how that works.
I would have thought a mental health professional would carry that out. If your relative is deemed to have no capacity but conversely does not have any diagnosed psychiatric or neurological deficit, surely thats a contradiction? And leaves her in no mans land, as can't get POA but also can't get a bus.

https://www.nhs.uk/social-care-and-support/making-decisions-for-someone-else/mental-capacity-act/ might help explain it and the assessment process. Also https://www.scie.org.uk/mca/practice/assessing-capacity/, which has some examples.

Capacity is separate from diagnosis. A professional making a capacity assessment may not be (and is usally not) qualified to make a diagnosis, but they are two very separate processes.

nhs.uk

Mental Capacity Act - Social care and support guide

Find out what the Mental Capacity Act is and what it means for you.

https://www.nhs.uk/social-care-and-support/making-decisions-for-someone-else/mental-capacity-act

OP posts:
justforthisnow · 23/07/2025 22:12

Can I get a brief explainer from anyone who knows as to the assessment for determining lack of capacity and who decides or assesses that? I'm not in the UK so I dont know how that works.
I would have thought a mental health professional would carry that out. If your relative is deemed to have no capacity but conversely does not have any diagnosed psychiatric or neurological deficit, surely thats a contradiction? And leaves her in no mans land, as can't get POA but also can't get a bus.

Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 22:09

RainSoakedNights · 23/07/2025 22:01

OP I’ve tried to tell you so many times what will happen from here. You don’t seem interested in hearing it and instead insist your only option is to bankroll her.

Show quote history

Not really. You've told me I'd need to apply for deputyship - I know this, however there is a 6-8 month delay in the CoP making orders.Someone will need food, heating oil, electricity, water, house insurance, council tax, etc paid in that 6-8 month period....

You've also told me to apply for appointeeship - I know this, I've told you we're investigating, but need to liaise with her advocate and social services as, if the DWP contact her and have a short conversation, they are likely to find her lucid and able to act as a benefit claimant for herself (and, as I explained, if that happens, she will not apply for benefits and noone else will be able to).

I've looked into Attendance Allowance, and am not sure that she's going to be eligible anyway. She's not received care for 6 months, she has no diagnosed condition nor is undergoing tests for any condition. She's not receiving physical personal care, the care visits are more about personal safety. There's nowhere on the AA form that collects data on capacity...

OP posts:
JanglyBeads · 23/07/2025 22:04

Oh and also agree 're as only seeming able to cope with "normal" situations.

I have also asked what happens if the washing machine breaks down, the back door needs replacing as not openable currently? No one can deal with those things.

RainSoakedNights · 23/07/2025 22:01

roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 21:30

But if Social Services are the one saying a person is going home, then there has to be a plan for maintaining the house, as well as the person. And this isn't about "sorting things out for the family". The person at the centre of this is clear she wants no involvement from "the family" in her personal affairs. So therefore, we can't intervene legally - there isn't, nor will there ever be an LPoA. It's likely there will be deputyship in the future, and in applying for that (or indeed applying just for appointeeship) the family will be torn apart.

If Social Services are pushing this course of action, then I don't think it's unreasonable for them to provide support in cases like this. Why should "the family" be put in a position where they have to bankroll another household completely, simply because that household did not wish to be supported by other people?

OP I’ve tried to tell you so many times what will happen from here. You don’t seem interested in hearing it and instead insist your only option is to bankroll her.

JanglyBeads · 23/07/2025 22:01

Is it truly the case that she doesn't have capacity to make welfare decisions but does have it to make finances decisions, though?
I completely understand or at least can empathise with what you say about multiple mental issues: I am dealing with dementia plus narcissism. Fun fun.

Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 21:58

GoldPoster · 23/07/2025 21:54

In this case can’t you just leave her to it. People have the right to self destruct. Maybe this is the way she wants to go out.

Show quote history

Not if she doesn't have capacity to make that decision. Yes, people with capacity have the right to make bad decisions, but people who don't have capacity don't. She doesn't have capacity to make decisions about her own health and wellbeing.....

OP posts:
Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 21:54

justforthisnow · 23/07/2025 21:46

This sounds so difficult OP, sorry you are dealing with it. I dont have much useful to add but I noticed how the relative in question managed to set up all her affairs obtusely enough to only be able to access money herself in person (that takes effort in this era, no cards or online access?) while still functional, is now unable to get to that money but won't allow anyone else to either (sorry if I misunderstood this part), yet is able to suddenly perk up and declare she won't engage with various state bodies trying to help her. It sounds like a very large ego mixed with a huge sense of pride, which is only harming herself in the long run (and you and other family in the shorter term).

Quite honestly it's a nightmare. This person has been shielded from the mental health services that could have really helped her for her entire life and has spent her whole life being told psychiatrists are evil and have to be avoided at all costs.

There's no diagnosed physical disability (though mobility isn't good), dementia and other neurological dysfunction has been ruled out via CT/MRI. There's a mental illness going on, but it's impossible to get a diagnosis for someone who refuses so completely to engage with MH professionals and who isn't a danger to themselves or others.

It's the lack of insight likely caused by this undiagnosed mental illness which leads to the lack of capacity, which blocks access to finances....

The whole situation is extremely difficult to explain or understand. I'm not sure SS themselves really have a handle on it. I'm sure they're very good with "conventional" dementia and other geriatric illness, but this seems to be outside their experience....

OP posts:
GoldPoster · 23/07/2025 21:54

roundaboutthehillsareshining · 22/07/2025 15:47

Sadly it's not possible, as she won't consent to that. The thing that maybe isn't clear in all this is that under no circumstances will this person consent to any "interference" in her management or administration of her financial affairs. Therefore the capacity question becomes central....

Show quote history

In this case can’t you just leave her to it. People have the right to self destruct. Maybe this is the way she wants to go out.

justforthisnow · 23/07/2025 21:46

This sounds so difficult OP, sorry you are dealing with it. I dont have much useful to add but I noticed how the relative in question managed to set up all her affairs obtusely enough to only be able to access money herself in person (that takes effort in this era, no cards or online access?) while still functional, is now unable to get to that money but won't allow anyone else to either (sorry if I misunderstood this part), yet is able to suddenly perk up and declare she won't engage with various state bodies trying to help her. It sounds like a very large ego mixed with a huge sense of pride, which is only harming herself in the long run (and you and other family in the shorter term).

Original poster
roundaboutthehillsareshining · 23/07/2025 21:30

But if Social Services are the one saying a person is going home, then there has to be a plan for maintaining the house, as well as the person. And this isn't about "sorting things out for the family". The person at the centre of this is clear she wants no involvement from "the family" in her personal affairs. So therefore, we can't intervene legally - there isn't, nor will there ever be an LPoA. It's likely there will be deputyship in the future, and in applying for that (or indeed applying just for appointeeship) the family will be torn apart.

If Social Services are pushing this course of action, then I don't think it's unreasonable for them to provide support in cases like this. Why should "the family" be put in a position where they have to bankroll another household completely, simply because that household did not wish to be supported by other people?

OP posts:
CaptainFuture · 23/07/2025 20:26

Blushingm · 23/07/2025 19:46

The person pays for it to be done. Unless it’s in a carers package they’re not expected to take on additional tasks. If the person needs it they pay the care agency to do it. Lots of people have cleaners and shopping calls

Show quote history

This, but people don't sadly often want to hear that. They complain about the nhs and ss for not looking after or sorting things for their family, but won't accept these are paid for services, either by savings, income or benefits.

Blushingm · 23/07/2025 19:46

rickyrickygrimes · 23/07/2025 11:01

There was no food, house was a shit hole, his clothes were all caked in shit.

This is where one of the big gaps is for many older people who stay at home. FIL is at home with carers coming three time a day. But if my SIL wasn’t willing to do his shopping and drop it off, keep up with his laundry and make sure he has clean clothes / sheets, and clean his house, the carers absolutely would not.

if a family member isn’t willing / able to do all the housekeeping, whose job is it?

The person pays for it to be done. Unless it’s in a carers package they’re not expected to take on additional tasks. If the person needs it they pay the care agency to do it. Lots of people have cleaners and shopping calls

Blushingm · 23/07/2025 19:44

Social services can use a friendly trust or similar

JanFebAndOnwards · 23/07/2025 19:34

I have sadly also discovered that paying £95 to have a police approved keysafe fitted is only of use if you can train an elderly person with dementia to stop putting the latch on their door at night.

( if doing a lot of lifting in that statement)

MissMoneyFairy · 23/07/2025 19:19

JanFebAndOnwards · 23/07/2025 16:52

I’ve found that “food can be delivered” only works if the person will open the door to people…

You can install a keysafe and some companies are happy to use this

rickyrickygrimes · 23/07/2025 18:02

JanFebAndOnwards · 23/07/2025 16:52

I’ve found that “food can be delivered” only works if the person will open the door to people…

… and put it away in the fridge / freezer / cupboard etc.