At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

Oukey, you are still beating around the bush

Sympathies. Reading this has made me grateful I have PoA.

@PropertyD Not helpful because I had POA for both parents after a bit of fuss but anyone heartily sick of hearing about elderly people doing it their way or the high way and being an observer in their own chaos?

This with bells on. My family have been lucky regarding PoA etc and our Dad is pretty amenable but not so the parents of many friends and daughters on this forum. In many ways they really deserve leaving to it but we're aware that being bloody minded is often part of their declining faculties and if they were thinking straight they might appreciate their way of dealing with life no longer works.
But gosh it must be so tempting for the OP and those in similar situations to just say 'sod it, I tried' and take the phone off the hook so to speak.

@RainSoakedNightsif she lacks capacity to make decisions about finances and there is evidence she decided prior to losing capacity that she didn’t want to claim benefits and doesn’t agree with the welfare state it probably won’t be in her Best Interests to do so now. Best interest decision making drills down into the decision it’s likely she would make if she had capacity, her values, the decisions she made when they had capacity.

I think the OPwill be quite concerned about a visit from someone to her relative to explain that they are going to “meddle” she she may well see it, with her monies?

My relative seems to have been persuaded however, at least for the moment.

Apply for Appointeeship with DWP for the State Pension/pension credit to be paid to you. Of course they check by visiting the proposed Appointee and the Claimant, but based on your description this is the sort of situation Appointeeship will help with. In these days meantime ask the Council for Foodbank vouchers. Contact whatever utility supply/insurance companies you know of you know to explain the situation if you think these are not being paid. A LA won’t place someone is a care home under DoLS just because there is a cash flow problem. That is not the least restrictive way to proceed.

It’s not unreasonable at all. However, your relative sounds incredibly paranoid and unwell (for a long time by the sounds of it) - it could be that they’ve told adults SS they don’t want information to be given out to anyone including family members.

Frustrating I know.

@roundaboutthehillsareshining it is reasonable for family to see the care plan if family support is any part of that care plan - maybe ask if any part of the care plan refers to family providing (or continuing to provide parts of) care?

I suggest this because we got the care plan from the care company (eventually, after the unsafe discharge)… social worker did not share anything in writing with family despite having written in the care plan that family would do ‘all domestic tasks’… care company shared the care plan when we complained - they responded with the care plan to show what was on their list and what they had been told was on ours!

I have so much sympathy for your situation: years of poor decisions, rooms you can’t get into, no diagnosis are all very familiar. Plus the fear of being hated 💐

Just spoken to the Age UK officer, who is wonderful and going to sort all the problems!!

Anyone here with similar issues: seek your Age UK Appointee Officer out. I assume every county has one although don’t know.

Will update later.

Thanks @Thingamebobwotsit . But it will be an appointeeship at first, due to the waiting list for the LA to apply for deputyship.

Possibly... certainly professional advocacy (I used to work in administration in care homes) sometimes seems to occur quicker than a relative applying. Speak to the social worker about the time line.

Thanks @Lightuptheroom. But that would all need time to happen?

Not unreasonable, but not lawful if the person hasn't listed anyone specific as PoA or next of kin, or asked the SS team not to share details. Consent to share information is enshrined in law. And best interests decisions are taken based on personal history in my experience. In DMs case she had refused to share information with anyone as her condition deteriorated so we were all kept out of the loop until such time it became a medical emergency. And even then we have no say over what happens to her (although the SS team and clinical team will seek my views). It is even now at the stage where I was advised not to go for Deputyship for Welfare as the Court of Protection is refusing them on the ground that if the person wanted family involved, they would have done it at an earlier stage.

@janfebandonwards just to confirm the MCA form is a CoP3 form if associated with Deputyship. It has to be a separate assessment to the care assessment and is submitted with the Deputyship paperwork. Until that is awarded you can't get access to your relatives money as such. We didn't go down the appointeeship route in the end as DM went into a home so everything will just get sorted at the point we need to. The whole system is geared up to protecting the individual and their assets but in cases where they did not put anything in place it is incredibly difficult to navigate.

So, in your case, the Age UK would have an account set up into which the state benefits are paid. Anything else would remain in the person's bank account and be classed as savings. If you need to claim money back then you'd send the receipt to the appointee as you wouldn't be able to access the accounts

Thanks shining, that’s helpful. However I am not going to be the appointee.

Can she write a cheque to you for x in the interim?

(Sorry @roundaboutthehillsareshining am not meaning to hijack your thread.)

Because appointees can only deal with income from state benefits, nothing else.

Why does the income need to be separated?

(sorry logged on different device under another UN)

The Age UK guy is taking part in the MCA in fact, ie visiting with the SW. So he'll know immediately. Am just wondering if we can still do the person's banking with them the day after the assessment, ie pay the week's bills and monies owed to me due to stuff I've paid for on his behalf this week. And there's a standing order which needs adjusting, ideally. The thing I've been asking them to do for some months is now happening rather quickly.

I don't really know how it's going to work as the income from benefits is going to need to be separated from the income from private pensions, which will also mean creating some kind of new or secondary (?) bank account.

Ah thanks. There won't be a deputyship application in my relative's case - or only in two years' time, which is apparently the length of our LA's waiting list (ie in cases where they are the only body willing to apply), but an appointeeship will hopefully be created, by the Age UK Officer.

@JanFebAndOnwards nothing happens.
The person who did the assessment provides the person applying for deputyship with the correct paperwork (I can't remember what it's called but there's a form they have to supply which details the outcome of the assessment etc) When the application is received, bank account etc can be 'frozen' if the particular bank choose to do so, but the main understanding is that direct debits would continue to be paid but nothing 'new' will be set up. Currently the applications take 8-9 months. Care home fees don't usually have to be paid during this period as these can be claimed back later. If the application is refused then you'd be notified why. Cost of deputyship is around £800 and there is then a yearly amount charged depending on the size of the persons savings etc