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Elderly parents

DoLS process - best interests assessment

31 replies

FiniteSagacity · 17/05/2025 17:51

I’m asking for your collective wisdom to educate me on the DoLS assessment process - I’ve read AgeUK and NICE guidelines about what is supposed to happen but please share your experiences so I can understand what might happen next in practice in my DF’s case and how I should prepare.

To summarise, we have both finance and health LPAs for DF who is already in a nursing home. DF is still mobile with aids but a falls risk. He is a difficult character who has no diagnosis of dementia but medical opinion is that he needs 24 hour supervision - this was a hospital in a different area though and I’m considering a subject access request to gather evidence.

I think the DoLS application (by nursing home) was in the Autumn of 2024 but I recently had contact with social care about something else and the social worker mentioned DF is still on the waiting list and that there will be a best interests assessment that we’ll be invited to.

DF has become quite hostile and will say he’s in prison and it’s my fault to an assessor (it’s a very nice prison and he is self-funding for now). I was present for social care needs assessment and NHS FNC assessments so I have a timeline of the rollercoaster that led us to nursing home.

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FiniteSagacity · 02/08/2025 19:44

Thank you @Mimosa3andmore at this point DF is still mobile and we’d be able to spend on carers from savings, it’s good to know what questions to ask both nursing home and how we might answer any CoP questions.

Hello and thank you also to @Louisetopaz21 - always appreciate you clarifying roles and where the challenge is directed.

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Mimosa3andmore · 02/08/2025 18:11

@FiniteSagacity In my experience carers can accompany family members as long as they have enough notice to rota that, leaving sufficient other carers at the home for the other residents, and if the family cover their wages for that time period. There are also independent care agencies that can support community access if the care home can't free up their staff.

Mimosa3andmore · 02/08/2025 18:02

@Louisetopaz21 Yes, the DOLS is being challenged rather than the placement but social services involvement is limited to the DOLS. It can't make decisions about funding 1:1 support for community access for self funding residents but can still allocate social workers to complete Needs Assessments. Sorry that wasn't clear in my post. Ultimately where a person is self funding with a Finance LPA in place, the LPA would need to confirm whether that support could be affordable or not.

Louisetopaz21 · 02/08/2025 16:29

Mimosa3andmore · 02/08/2025 15:51

The DOLS team would have appointed an independent RPR as soon they noted his objections and that family weren't in agreement with launching a challenge in court anyway. Hopefully his solicitor and RPR will agree that just making the placement less restrictive by increasing community access will be enough.

You'd be surprised at the number of people in care homes that don't have a formal diagnosis. The s21A challenge may direct proper evidence of that as part of the process.

As LPAs, your views will also be taken into account by the court and given weight. Social services will have a minimal role as he's self-funding. Just to make you aware that if increased 1:1 support is required to enable increased community access, he would also be highly likely to be expected to pay for that himself too.

In my experience of S21a challenges, the judge will direct the local authority to complete a needs assessment and position statement as the DoLS authorisation is being directly objected to rather than the placement per se so the person is challenging the local authority.

FiniteSagacity · 02/08/2025 16:16

Thank you for mentioning that community access might mean additional cost, all good to prepare myself for.

Family always have at least two people when we take him out and a sibling did wonder if we could arrange to take a carer along on a day trip further afield.

The best interests assessor was reassuring about us spending DFs money on things to benefit him and we’re considering a made to measure chair.

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Mimosa3andmore · 02/08/2025 15:51

The DOLS team would have appointed an independent RPR as soon they noted his objections and that family weren't in agreement with launching a challenge in court anyway. Hopefully his solicitor and RPR will agree that just making the placement less restrictive by increasing community access will be enough.

You'd be surprised at the number of people in care homes that don't have a formal diagnosis. The s21A challenge may direct proper evidence of that as part of the process.

As LPAs, your views will also be taken into account by the court and given weight. Social services will have a minimal role as he's self-funding. Just to make you aware that if increased 1:1 support is required to enable increased community access, he would also be highly likely to be expected to pay for that himself too.

FiniteSagacity · 02/08/2025 15:21

Thank you @Mimosa3andmore it helps to manage my expectations of timing, I think a s21A is inevitable after things DF said at the assessment. I just hope we don’t regret an Independent Advocate getting involved.

Family have both LPAs but DF has no formal diagnosis, mild cognitive impairment and fluctuating capacity have been mentioned but DF has no insight or acceptance of his needs.

Family basically don’t want what time they can spend with DF eaten up doing paperwork to fight being in the nursing home, when it conflicts with what we (and several medical professionals) think he actually needs.

Family would rather help DF feel less deprived of his liberty by making the best of the setting and taking him on outings.

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Mimosa3andmore · 02/08/2025 10:33

Just to say that if he's objecting to the placement (even if he doesn't have capacity) the independent representative (RPR) will be obliged to appoint a solicitor to launch a s21A challenge in the Court of Protection. It's non means tested and doesn't mean he will move but can take several months for a final decision.

FiniteSagacity · 02/08/2025 10:06

Well we’ve had the doctor and social worker assessments but we’re now waiting for the report and I’m wondering if we’ve made a terrible decision.

Our father was only willing to appoint his busiest most stressed out child as his personal representative… so assessor has been told it will have to be an independent (paid for by legal aid) representative.

I hope he gets someone experienced and brilliant. I hope this means the nursing home enable more outings - especially because he is currently self-funding.

I hope we haven’t made a terrible mistake which forces us into court discussions which will just distress him.

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Louisetopaz21 · 20/05/2025 20:33

FiniteSagacity · 20/05/2025 20:30

@Louisetopaz21 Amanda Hill’s story is so helpful - I’ve shared with my siblings, even though I know we might not end up down that road. Thank you so much for sharing.

You are so welcome I share this with families

FiniteSagacity · 20/05/2025 20:30

@Louisetopaz21 Amanda Hill’s story is so helpful - I’ve shared with my siblings, even though I know we might not end up down that road. Thank you so much for sharing.

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FiniteSagacity · 19/05/2025 21:23

Thank you @Louisetopaz21 this is very interesting and I prefer to understand and be prepared 🙏

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Louisetopaz21 · 19/05/2025 18:36

FiniteSagacity · 18/05/2025 21:14

So while he will say he wants to leave, he needs the care and prompting.

A person does not need to have a conformed diagnosis but the section 12 dr can determine a probable diagnosis. In terms of him requesting to leave the home can be seen as a challenge to the authorisation and without wanting to cause you any worries because you don't need to be potentially it can be progressed as a section 21a challenge for a judge to determine if the placement is in his best interests and necessary and proportionate. This does not mean that you will be criticised at all, it just ensures his Article 5 rights under the Human Rights Act is upheld, he will get access automatically to legal aid. https://openjusticecourtofprotection.org/ this explains in simple terms for families but honestly do not worry though but you might find it interesting.

Promoting Open Justice in the Court of Protection

Interested in seeing Justice in Action? Check out our Featured Hearings...

https://openjusticecourtofprotection.org

FiniteSagacity · 18/05/2025 21:14

So while he will say he wants to leave, he needs the care and prompting.

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FiniteSagacity · 18/05/2025 21:09

Thanks @hatgirl I know the nursing home had to apply but that does clarify roles. Also appreciate you clarifying about live in carers.

In practice DF wasn’t leaving his previous sheltered accommodation, when he was free to do so.

My anxiety is mainly around the lack of any mental health condition being diagnosed (despite lots of assessments) but DF is now unable to do most of the activities of daily living - and none of the instrumental ADLs.

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hatgirl · 18/05/2025 20:49

MissMoneyFairy · 18/05/2025 19:07

Thanks hatgirl, I thought dols doesn't apply to medical decisions, I know urgent dols can be applied for and always thought the carehome manager could authorise that, it's good to learn so appreciate your knowledge. If he has capacity I guess he's free to leave.

DoLS isn't really to do with medical decisons. It's more about keeping someone somewhere they can't consent to be kept.

Lady Hale's acid test

Is the person free to leave

Is the person subject to continuous supervision and control

That applies whether the person is in a hospital or in a care home and it is the setting they are in that needs to make the application for a DoLS.

If a person lacking capacity meets the 'acid test' within a non regulated setting, e.g. their own home then the deprivation of their liberty still needs to be signed off in what is know as a 'Court of Protection (CoP) DoLS - for example if they have cameras or sensors monitoring their movements within the house, or live in carers, and they can't leave the house without supervision or control.

However things like using covert meds, sedative meds, restraints such as lap belts on wheelchairs, baby gates etc should also be considered as part of a DoLS application.

MissMoneyFairy · 18/05/2025 19:07

Thanks hatgirl, I thought dols doesn't apply to medical decisions, I know urgent dols can be applied for and always thought the carehome manager could authorise that, it's good to learn so appreciate your knowledge. If he has capacity I guess he's free to leave.

hatgirl · 18/05/2025 19:02

MissMoneyFairy · 18/05/2025 18:34

Doesn't he need a capacity assessment first before anyone can submit a dol, what do the care home think he needs a dol for and if he's not got capacity then the health lpa can start, there's no need for a best interest meeting.

It's two separate things.

He will have had a capacity assessment at the point of admission by the sound of things.

The OP having LPOA means she can legally make the decision to place him there if he is considered to lack capacity to make the decision himself without having to have a best interests meeting with the local authority.

The care home as the physical place that is 'detaining' him has to apply in its own right to legally detain him there 'against his will' (a lack of capacity means he can't consent to it) and the local authority has to sign off the application.

Everyone in a care home who lacks capacity has to have a DoLS, most are standard DoLS applications and there are huuuge backlogs for these being signed off by local authorities. However in situations where someone is actively objecting and indicating they want to leave, an urgent DoLS can be applied for and will happen quite quickly.

MissMoneyFairy · 18/05/2025 18:34

Doesn't he need a capacity assessment first before anyone can submit a dol, what do the care home think he needs a dol for and if he's not got capacity then the health lpa can start, there's no need for a best interest meeting.

rhetorician · 18/05/2025 18:27

Have been thought this with my mother; I’ve found the assessor to be incredibly diligent, compassionate and thoughtful. I think they are well used to dealing with people who for a variety of reasons have no insight into their own care needs. Sometimes they are unintentionally hilarious as they write down verbatim what the conversation was.

FiniteSagacity · 18/05/2025 18:22

Thanks @hatgirl for sharing the bigger picture of backlogs, I have tried to bear the context of overstretched services and political tinkering in mind and I’m always polite and respectful. It must be very hard working in a long backlog and within a little understood area. I’m not minded to chase this up and just wanted to feel prepared whenever they get to us.

DF will spin a story of freedom but he couldn’t make the arrangements to book a taxi, let alone move out. While a nursing home comes with some restrictions on his liberty, he really needs the prompting and round the clock care to keep him alive.

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hatgirl · 18/05/2025 17:26

FiniteSagacity · 18/05/2025 17:17

Thank you both, so helpful to have insights on both the side of referral @Lightuptheroom and assessor @Louisetopaz21. Really helpful to hear assessor will have a large pinch of salt with the story DF will spin 🙏

@Iloveeverycat like you, I just know the theory and wasn’t sure what happens. I was a bit surprised it hadn’t happened already (but he’s safe now so not a priority).

I might say I can’t attend if a sibling can do the assessment or the assessor is happy to talk to me separately. DF is just being vile to me at the moment and in reality the outside world is exhausting and overwhelming when we do take him out (thankfully he always wants to return to the nursing home!).

Most local authorities have huge DoLS backlogs - it's part of the reason the Liberty Protection Safeguards were being brought in instead but they keep being pushed into the long grass by what is now several governments.

However there are mechanisms in place to apply for an urgent DoLS Authorisation if it's needed.

I wouldn't be surprised if your dad's recent objections haven't pushed him up the list a bit.

FiniteSagacity · 18/05/2025 17:17

Thank you both, so helpful to have insights on both the side of referral @Lightuptheroom and assessor @Louisetopaz21. Really helpful to hear assessor will have a large pinch of salt with the story DF will spin 🙏

@Iloveeverycat like you, I just know the theory and wasn’t sure what happens. I was a bit surprised it hadn’t happened already (but he’s safe now so not a priority).

I might say I can’t attend if a sibling can do the assessment or the assessor is happy to talk to me separately. DF is just being vile to me at the moment and in reality the outside world is exhausting and overwhelming when we do take him out (thankfully he always wants to return to the nursing home!).

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Lightuptheroom · 17/05/2025 19:46

I didn't cover everything, I used to write the dols applications for local authority care homes, though it was a while back