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Elderly parents
Original poster

Elderly GF suddenly needing care but possible deprivation of assets issue

110 replies

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 16:57

Hi, my GF is 93 and has been living alone since my GM died 8 years ago. He has always been fit and well and was even driving up until recently.

He has been slowing down over the past few years but nothing out of the ordinary other than ageing.

A Couple of weeks ago he fell at home and hit his head, it was a small cut with lots of blood but despite my best efforts refused to go to hospital. I got my nurse friend to check him out and all was OK.

Since then he has become almost a shell of himself, he is unsteady, cannot use stairs, cannot go to the toilet alone etc.

On the day of the fall he went to stay with my Dad, they have a somewhat tumultuous relationship, neither are easy people but I would say my Dad is the worse of the two (I don't get along well with him either).

GF has another son but they are estranged and don't speak to one another at all.

After a few days at Dad's I was phoned to come urgently, Dad said GF had hit him for no reason. GF says this is an exaggeration and Dad had pushed him to his limit (I can well believe this).

GF insisted on returning home and I was going there at least twice a day to check on him. He does not have a downstairs loo but told me he was managing to get upstairs.

On Friday when I arrived in the morning, he had knocked a table over and there was faeces on the floor. It also transpires he has been urinating in tupperware and pouring it down the sink instead of using the toilet.

He begged me to let him live with me. I don't have a spare bedroom (it's me, DH and 2 young sons). We both work and boys are in full time school.

I brought him home and he has been sleeping on the couch, I take him to the toilet and he calls me in the night when he needs to go. I'm exhausted.

He is willing to have a care assessment and I am waiting on a callback from the LA.

BUT, some years ago (10ish) my grandparents signed their home over to their 2 children (my Dad and brother) to avoid inheritance taxes. This is nothing to do with me, but would that be deprivation of assets?

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me if it was but will it affect/hold up any care plan for GF, i just want the best for him ASAP.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:42

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:38

Legally, simply, no....

If he had no knowledge he would need care at the time of signing the house over, it cannot be viewed as deprivation of assets, I deal with this all the time, and its not going to happen.

but...

As he still lives in the house it was a gift with reservation of benefit, which means it is still counted for inheritance tax regardless of the legal owner - no 7 years, no nothing, he still has the beneficial interest therefore its whole value is counted. So nothing achieved there.

Show quote history

That's really interesting thank you.

For once that's something I don't need to worry about, but my Dad and uncle should!

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:40

DiscoBeat · 13/04/2025 22:30

Surely it wouldn't be deprivation of assets if it was 10 years ago and he was in good health. But yes getting him checked out is paramount.

No, it absolutely wouldn't, but its still his for purposes of inheritance tax.

If you give away your home, but continue to reside in it (excluding if you rent it at full market rent) it is classed as a gift with reservation of benefit, and still counted.

The 7 year rule does not apply to this type of gift, nor does taper relief.

No inheritance tax has been avoided!

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:38

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 16:57

Hi, my GF is 93 and has been living alone since my GM died 8 years ago. He has always been fit and well and was even driving up until recently.

He has been slowing down over the past few years but nothing out of the ordinary other than ageing.

A Couple of weeks ago he fell at home and hit his head, it was a small cut with lots of blood but despite my best efforts refused to go to hospital. I got my nurse friend to check him out and all was OK.

Since then he has become almost a shell of himself, he is unsteady, cannot use stairs, cannot go to the toilet alone etc.

On the day of the fall he went to stay with my Dad, they have a somewhat tumultuous relationship, neither are easy people but I would say my Dad is the worse of the two (I don't get along well with him either).

GF has another son but they are estranged and don't speak to one another at all.

After a few days at Dad's I was phoned to come urgently, Dad said GF had hit him for no reason. GF says this is an exaggeration and Dad had pushed him to his limit (I can well believe this).

GF insisted on returning home and I was going there at least twice a day to check on him. He does not have a downstairs loo but told me he was managing to get upstairs.

On Friday when I arrived in the morning, he had knocked a table over and there was faeces on the floor. It also transpires he has been urinating in tupperware and pouring it down the sink instead of using the toilet.

He begged me to let him live with me. I don't have a spare bedroom (it's me, DH and 2 young sons). We both work and boys are in full time school.

I brought him home and he has been sleeping on the couch, I take him to the toilet and he calls me in the night when he needs to go. I'm exhausted.

He is willing to have a care assessment and I am waiting on a callback from the LA.

BUT, some years ago (10ish) my grandparents signed their home over to their 2 children (my Dad and brother) to avoid inheritance taxes. This is nothing to do with me, but would that be deprivation of assets?

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me if it was but will it affect/hold up any care plan for GF, i just want the best for him ASAP.

Legally, simply, no....

If he had no knowledge he would need care at the time of signing the house over, it cannot be viewed as deprivation of assets, I deal with this all the time, and its not going to happen.

but...

As he still lives in the house it was a gift with reservation of benefit, which means it is still counted for inheritance tax regardless of the legal owner - no 7 years, no nothing, he still has the beneficial interest therefore its whole value is counted. So nothing achieved there.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:35

SeaToSki · 13/04/2025 22:27

Would GF go to A and E for an assessment on his head of that meant it would speed up getting a place in a home, and he would be safe and comfortable in the meantime?

Yes potentially if I explained it in this way to him. In all honesty I feel dreadful for not taking him there immediately after the fall but he seemed OK and my Dad took him home to keep an eye on him.

My Dad told me that they would be there for hours and would just be sent home and that wouldn't be good for my GF.

I naively thought he was right. Now I think he just didn't want the bother.

I feel like I should have advocated better for him :(

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:32

catofglory · 13/04/2025 22:17

@ThisBreezySnake
It's good GF is accepting of the idea of residential care.

Your problem will be getting SS to agree. They almost always insist on trying at-home care first. So he may get a care home placement but it is unlikely to be in the immediate future.

And I do agree with others that you should tell SS he is living in his own home, and when they visit for an assessment, ensure he is there.

He is now living with the consequences of giving his house away. If he had money from a property sale he could choose for himself what care he had, rather than relying on what SS decide. I'm sorry you have been put in this position.

Yes he is certainly regretful about a decision that he made trying to do the best for his children who now have essentially abandoned him :(

I understand now that it will be more difficult if I tell SS he is with us. I just hate being dishonest and don't want to drop him off at home unless I know they will come?

OP posts:
DiscoBeat · 13/04/2025 22:30

Surely it wouldn't be deprivation of assets if it was 10 years ago and he was in good health. But yes getting him checked out is paramount.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:27

godmum56 · 13/04/2025 22:12

Speaking as a professional, now retired, and daughter of a late beloved mother, my advice, even though you love him dearly is to have a conversation with him about the fact that this cannot go on. If he has capacity, then he needs to think about what he want do do out of the choices that he has and that staying with you for much longer is not one of them. I am glad to see you have contacted Social Services and I hope they respond soon.

Show quote history

Thank you, i have told him that he is merely staying and cannot 'live' here, he understands but does not want to go back home and be cared for there.

I appreciate that what he wants may not be the priority of SS but I'm not sure he wants to believe that.

OP posts:
SeaToSki · 13/04/2025 22:27

Would GF go to A and E for an assessment on his head of that meant it would speed up getting a place in a home, and he would be safe and comfortable in the meantime?

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:24

redphonecase · 13/04/2025 22:12

Re the house thing ,if your grandparents have paid a market rent to your dad and his siblings, which they have paid tax on, it's fine. But I'd imagine none of that has happened.

No you are correct, this has not happened.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:23

BeachRide · 13/04/2025 22:10

It's outrageous that you're having to do all this care and worrying, whilst your father and uncle are sitting pretty on the house money. Shame on them both.

Totally agree, an unforgivable selfish act. I expected more :(

OP posts:
DamsonGoldfinch · 13/04/2025 22:21

8 weeks is fast for a needs assessment. It took 4 months for ours. If he’s happy to go into a home then you need to take him to a hospital and get him assessed. But they will try and get you to care for him.

And I think his house will have to be sold to pay for it. Point 2 applies from @catofglory’s list - he transferred the house into his sons’ name to avoid having to pay for care.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:20

SwornToSilence · 13/04/2025 21:35

I'd be letting my father and uncle know about the DOA situation and how it's about to blow up, and how they need to step up and care for their father at his home and cover his at-home care costs before SS come sniffing and they get landed with a substantial financial outlay. They may not care for him, but I bet they will care about the money

Oh they will certainly care about the money!!!

Even if the DOA issue caused them a change of heart my GF would never go with my uncle as they haven't spoken for years and is refusing to speak/see my Dad after their recent argument.

Can't say I blame him, but it doesn't help!

OP posts:
catofglory · 13/04/2025 22:17

@ThisBreezySnake
It's good GF is accepting of the idea of residential care.

Your problem will be getting SS to agree. They almost always insist on trying at-home care first. So he may get a care home placement but it is unlikely to be in the immediate future.

And I do agree with others that you should tell SS he is living in his own home, and when they visit for an assessment, ensure he is there.

He is now living with the consequences of giving his house away. If he had money from a property sale he could choose for himself what care he had, rather than relying on what SS decide. I'm sorry you have been put in this position.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:17

stayathomegardener · 13/04/2025 21:27

Anyone signing over their main residence at 83 years old would be deemed by Social Services to have tried to avoid care fees in a depravation of assets situation yes.

Ironically as your GF isn’t paying his sons rent this would be classed as a gift with reservations so there’s tax implications there.

Social Services can take weeks to assess someone who is being effectively cared for by family (you in this case, they will not care if this breaks you)
Your best bet is to get him to hospital for a check up and involve Social Services then, it’s actually the best chance your GF has of retaining his independence at home too.

Occupational health are a fantastic resource too.

Is your GF claiming Attendance Allowance?
And how dare his ungrateful sons take his house and stand back when he needs support.

Yes he does get attendance allowance, it's something I helped him apply for.

As for my Dad and uncle, I share exactly the same thoughts as you. I will never forgive them for this.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:15

HMW19061 · 13/04/2025 21:57

OP I would advise that you return your GF to his own home and then contact social care. As he is staying with you it is likely he’ll be seen as being safe and they’ll drag their heel as bit. If he’s in his own home you can say he is unsafe and they will need to act quicker.

I had not thought of this so thank you for raising it. The thought of taking him back whilst unbearable may be our only option. This is heartbreaking :(

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:13

Ilikewinter · 13/04/2025 21:56

I agree with SS, we had MIL come to stay with us because she couldn't manage on her own, we got no help at all as others have said, in the end we took her home and then withdrew all care, at that point SS did step in. DH found it so hard, like he'd abandoned his mum but honestly it was the only way to get someone to give two hoots. The system is just so broken. Stay strong OP!

Oh my gosh how awful for you, this really is a depressing state of affairs for anyone to be in :( thank you for your kind words!

OP posts:
godmum56 · 13/04/2025 22:12

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 17:21

I agree, it's made me a prisoner in my own home, I love him dearly but it's not sustainable him being here. All I want is to help him, thank you

Show quote history

Speaking as a professional, now retired, and daughter of a late beloved mother, my advice, even though you love him dearly is to have a conversation with him about the fact that this cannot go on. If he has capacity, then he needs to think about what he want do do out of the choices that he has and that staying with you for much longer is not one of them. I am glad to see you have contacted Social Services and I hope they respond soon.

redphonecase · 13/04/2025 22:12

Re the house thing ,if your grandparents have paid a market rent to your dad and his siblings, which they have paid tax on, it's fine. But I'd imagine none of that has happened.

BeachRide · 13/04/2025 22:10

It's outrageous that you're having to do all this care and worrying, whilst your father and uncle are sitting pretty on the house money. Shame on them both.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:10

catofglory · 13/04/2025 21:53

7 years has nothing to do with deprivation of assets, 7 years is related to inheritance tax.

OP this would not be deprivation assets.

What counts as deprivation of assets?
When your council is deciding whether getting rid of property and money has been a deliberate deprivation of assets, they will consider a few things:

  1. If you knew you would need care and support at the time you gave away your assets.
  2. If paying for care and support was a significant reason for you giving away your assets.
  3. If you knew you would need to contribute money towards your care.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

However IMO that is the least of your immediate worries. Your GF needs medical attention.

In terms of what care he would get at home, Social services will offer (at most) 4 care visits a day of 30 minutes each, which in practice would probably be less than 30 minutes. They would help him get out of bed, dress, wash etc, and offer meals. It would not be adequate because it sounds like he needs much more supervision than that, and it is not going to help you when he needs the loo in the 22 hours the carers are not there. And if he is living with you, they will not see it as urgent.

Sorry to sound negative but I don't want you to pin your hopes on Social services care at home. It sounds as if he needs residential care.

Thank you for the info on the DOA, it doesn't sound like it applies as when my grandparents did it they would have been totally fit and healthy. But like you say it's not the most pressing issue!

I do agree that residential is the most likely option. I thought GF would be against it but he is more accepting of it than home help. He says he cannot go home.

OP posts:
HMW19061 · 13/04/2025 21:57

OP I would advise that you return your GF to his own home and then contact social care. As he is staying with you it is likely he’ll be seen as being safe and they’ll drag their heel as bit. If he’s in his own home you can say he is unsafe and they will need to act quicker.

Ilikewinter · 13/04/2025 21:56

I agree with SS, we had MIL come to stay with us because she couldn't manage on her own, we got no help at all as others have said, in the end we took her home and then withdrew all care, at that point SS did step in. DH found it so hard, like he'd abandoned his mum but honestly it was the only way to get someone to give two hoots. The system is just so broken. Stay strong OP!

catofglory · 13/04/2025 21:53

7 years has nothing to do with deprivation of assets, 7 years is related to inheritance tax.

OP this would not be deprivation assets.

What counts as deprivation of assets?
When your council is deciding whether getting rid of property and money has been a deliberate deprivation of assets, they will consider a few things:

  1. If you knew you would need care and support at the time you gave away your assets.
  2. If paying for care and support was a significant reason for you giving away your assets.
  3. If you knew you would need to contribute money towards your care.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

However IMO that is the least of your immediate worries. Your GF needs medical attention.

In terms of what care he would get at home, Social services will offer (at most) 4 care visits a day of 30 minutes each, which in practice would probably be less than 30 minutes. They would help him get out of bed, dress, wash etc, and offer meals. It would not be adequate because it sounds like he needs much more supervision than that, and it is not going to help you when he needs the loo in the 22 hours the carers are not there. And if he is living with you, they will not see it as urgent.

Sorry to sound negative but I don't want you to pin your hopes on Social services care at home. It sounds as if he needs residential care.

PurpleFlower1983 · 13/04/2025 21:45

Soonenough · 13/04/2025 21:38

I thought DOA limit was 7 years ? You say it was over 10 years ago when he was 83 . May not be an issue . Even if you had your home adapted to him I can't see how you could provide the care he needs on a FT basis . Don't feel bad if you have to make alternative arrangements for him. There are all sorts of scenarios , Care plans at home, respite , residential care etc..

It’s not, they can go back as far as they want.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 21:41

Soonenough · 13/04/2025 21:38

I thought DOA limit was 7 years ? You say it was over 10 years ago when he was 83 . May not be an issue . Even if you had your home adapted to him I can't see how you could provide the care he needs on a FT basis . Don't feel bad if you have to make alternative arrangements for him. There are all sorts of scenarios , Care plans at home, respite , residential care etc..

Yes I have a vague recollection of it happening but I was much younger then and didn't get involved in this type of stuff. My Dad seems to think it was around 10 years ago, could be more.

We just don't have the space here, no spare rooms, shower is in the attic etc. I hate seeing him sleeping on the couch. We offered him our bed but he refuses to climb the stairs.

OP posts: