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Elderly parents
Original poster

Elderly GF suddenly needing care but possible deprivation of assets issue

110 replies

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 16:57

Hi, my GF is 93 and has been living alone since my GM died 8 years ago. He has always been fit and well and was even driving up until recently.

He has been slowing down over the past few years but nothing out of the ordinary other than ageing.

A Couple of weeks ago he fell at home and hit his head, it was a small cut with lots of blood but despite my best efforts refused to go to hospital. I got my nurse friend to check him out and all was OK.

Since then he has become almost a shell of himself, he is unsteady, cannot use stairs, cannot go to the toilet alone etc.

On the day of the fall he went to stay with my Dad, they have a somewhat tumultuous relationship, neither are easy people but I would say my Dad is the worse of the two (I don't get along well with him either).

GF has another son but they are estranged and don't speak to one another at all.

After a few days at Dad's I was phoned to come urgently, Dad said GF had hit him for no reason. GF says this is an exaggeration and Dad had pushed him to his limit (I can well believe this).

GF insisted on returning home and I was going there at least twice a day to check on him. He does not have a downstairs loo but told me he was managing to get upstairs.

On Friday when I arrived in the morning, he had knocked a table over and there was faeces on the floor. It also transpires he has been urinating in tupperware and pouring it down the sink instead of using the toilet.

He begged me to let him live with me. I don't have a spare bedroom (it's me, DH and 2 young sons). We both work and boys are in full time school.

I brought him home and he has been sleeping on the couch, I take him to the toilet and he calls me in the night when he needs to go. I'm exhausted.

He is willing to have a care assessment and I am waiting on a callback from the LA.

BUT, some years ago (10ish) my grandparents signed their home over to their 2 children (my Dad and brother) to avoid inheritance taxes. This is nothing to do with me, but would that be deprivation of assets?

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me if it was but will it affect/hold up any care plan for GF, i just want the best for him ASAP.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:16

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:15

Sign nothing, nothing at all - yes and tell them not to either, there is nothing they or you need to be signing unless any of you are POA

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Dad and I are POA jointly?

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:15

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:13

Good to know thank you. I may tell them about not signing a DPA but to be honest I doubt they will have much to do with SS going forward if anything and I will certainly not sign anything!

And yes, they are the only names on there

Edited
Show quote history

Sign nothing, nothing at all - yes and tell them not to either, there is nothing they or you need to be signing unless any of you are POA

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:14

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:12

Deffo no IHT to pay, but, whoever executes the estate will have to do a full IHT400 declaring the gift as part of the probate procedure - if that is correctly done HMRC will be satisfied and there should not be any further issues, however there may be CGT to pay when it is sold.

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That makes sense thank you.

I should say that won't be my problem shouldn't I! I'm too nice though

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:13

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:04

So long as dad and uncle are the only names on the title it would be impossible, given the passage of time for the council to secure a charge on it, as the legal owners are the dad and uncle, and they are not liable for the care fees.

Will they try and get them to sign a DPA and agree to a charge, yep, they sure will, but unless they do, it simply cannot be got after this period of time.

Its a botched IHT saving exercise, that's all.

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Good to know thank you. I may tell them about not signing a DPA but to be honest I doubt they will have much to do with SS going forward if anything and I will certainly not sign anything!

And yes, they are the only names on there

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:12

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:09

Yes it was my grandparents house. My GM passed 5 years ago but the house was signed over when they were both alive.

It is probably worth £300k at the most.

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Deffo no IHT to pay, but, whoever executes the estate will have to do a full IHT400 declaring the gift as part of the probate procedure - if that is correctly done HMRC will be satisfied and there should not be any further issues, however there may be CGT to pay when it is sold.

saraclara · 13/04/2025 23:12

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:09

Yes it was my grandparents house. My GM passed 5 years ago but the house was signed over when they were both alive.

It is probably worth £300k at the most.

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There are absolutely no issues with IHT then. HMRC won't be remotely interested when his house (if they want to count it as his) and cash doesn't even come close to his own personal allowance limit.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:09

saraclara · 13/04/2025 23:05

Assuming that your grandfather used to be married, unless his house is worth over 1 million pounds, there'll be no IHT to pay, whatever he did with the house.

The IHT allowance is £375k pp (including the spouse who died first) plus up to £250k for the home that he owned. So even if HMRC decided that the home should be covered as his, it'd have to be worth a heck of a lot for it to be an issue

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Yes it was my grandparents house. My GM passed 5 years ago but the house was signed over when they were both alive.

It is probably worth £300k at the most.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:08

Diydanny · 13/04/2025 22:58

Maybe sell the house and use some of the money to rent a more appropriate place with downstairs loo/wet room and to pay for carers from an agency to come in two or three times a day.

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Unfortunately it is not mine to sell. That would be a decision for my Dad and uncle, and I can imagine they would not want to do that.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:05

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:57

Local authorities will game play to try and secure assets, they like to get someone to sign a deferred payment agreement, if they can get a signature on one of those they hope to be able to use it to secure a charge.

What they won't do is go the full hog and take it to court, only very rarely when they are really sure of their ground, because there isn't much case law on it, and if they are ruled against it creates precedents against the somewhat shaky legislation.

If in ThisBreezySnakes case the relative told the council she did it to avoid care fees, then clearly that would give them a case, even 20 years after - if not they wouldn't have a chance of getting anywhere except through scare tactics and trying to get it signed over.

The number of people I come across who have signed away their property, even in situation where they are protected by the care act is amazing.

For example, if husband and wife share the home, wife goes into care, the house is disregarded under the act, it cannot be used as part of the assessment, but I see situations where they have signed a DPA and had a charge placed because someone said sign here.

Edited
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That seems a fair point and can see how they would want to avoid pursuing it all the way.

After hearing everyone's advice on the DOA I am now feeling lots better about that aspect of the situation, as in I don't care about what happens to the house I'm just glad it shouldnt cause any immediate delay

OP posts:
saraclara · 13/04/2025 23:05

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:50

Thank you but aside from the house and contents there is nothing to leave. I am not part of any will and just hope to have some photos etc from the house when that sad time arrives.

Show quote history

Assuming that your grandfather used to be married, unless his house is worth over 1 million pounds, there'll be no IHT to pay, whatever he did with the house.

The IHT allowance is £375k pp (including the spouse who died first) plus up to £250k for the home that he owned. So even if HMRC decided that the home should be covered as his, it'd have to be worth a heck of a lot for it to be an issue

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:04

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:01

All I know is the house was signed over and it is now in my Dad's and Uncles name jointly. I don't know by what legal mechanism it was done but I do know it was done via a solicitor.

Show quote history

So long as dad and uncle are the only names on the title it would be impossible, given the passage of time for the council to secure a charge on it, as the legal owners are the dad and uncle, and they are not liable for the care fees.

Will they try and get them to sign a DPA and agree to a charge, yep, they sure will, but unless they do, it simply cannot be got after this period of time.

Its a botched IHT saving exercise, that's all.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:01

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:53

No they wouldn't be, as they would have no legal route available to obtain the house, assuming it was registered in your father's name. Unless someone signed it over or signed a DPA they would have to apply to the high court, no local authority would want to do that, for obvious reasons

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All I know is the house was signed over and it is now in my Dad's and Uncles name jointly. I don't know by what legal mechanism it was done but I do know it was done via a solicitor.

OP posts:
minnienono · 13/04/2025 23:00

If you cannot cope you can drive him to a&e and simply tell them he’s fallen and can’t go home. He might be angry with you for doing this but it is the quickest way to get a care assessment because he can’t be sent home without one

Diydanny · 13/04/2025 22:58

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:32

Yes he is certainly regretful about a decision that he made trying to do the best for his children who now have essentially abandoned him :(

I understand now that it will be more difficult if I tell SS he is with us. I just hate being dishonest and don't want to drop him off at home unless I know they will come?

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Maybe sell the house and use some of the money to rent a more appropriate place with downstairs loo/wet room and to pay for carers from an agency to come in two or three times a day.

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:57

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:51

As in they weren't interested in the money from the house or they weren't interested that it had been signed over and went after it?

I mean this is a moot point to me as I've nothing to gain, just didn't want it to hold up GF care assessment.

Show quote history

Local authorities will game play to try and secure assets, they like to get someone to sign a deferred payment agreement, if they can get a signature on one of those they hope to be able to use it to secure a charge.

What they won't do is go the full hog and take it to court, only very rarely when they are really sure of their ground, because there isn't much case law on it, and if they are ruled against it creates precedents against the somewhat shaky legislation.

If in ThisBreezySnakes case the relative told the council she did it to avoid care fees, then clearly that would give them a case, even 20 years after - if not they wouldn't have a chance of getting anywhere except through scare tactics and trying to get it signed over.

The number of people I come across who have signed away their property, even in situation where they are protected by the care act is amazing.

For example, if husband and wife share the home, wife goes into care, the house is disregarded under the act, it cannot be used as part of the assessment, but I see situations where they have signed a DPA and had a charge placed because someone said sign here.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:56

PurpleFlower1983 · 13/04/2025 22:55

It won’t hold up any care assessment, it may just make the financial assessment take a bit longer.

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That's good news for GF and I, thank you!

OP posts:
PurpleFlower1983 · 13/04/2025 22:55

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:51

As in they weren't interested in the money from the house or they weren't interested that it had been signed over and went after it?

I mean this is a moot point to me as I've nothing to gain, just didn't want it to hold up GF care assessment.

Show quote history

It won’t hold up any care assessment, it may just make the financial assessment take a bit longer.

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:53

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:46

A family member signed her house over to my Dad 20 years ago, expressly to avoid care home fees. She even told the council (she has dementia but didn't when she signed the house over), when having her care assessment and they weren't the least bit interested.

No they wouldn't be, as they would have no legal route available to obtain the house, assuming it was registered in your father's name. Unless someone signed it over or signed a DPA they would have to apply to the high court, no local authority would want to do that, for obvious reasons

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:51

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:46

A family member signed her house over to my Dad 20 years ago, expressly to avoid care home fees. She even told the council (she has dementia but didn't when she signed the house over), when having her care assessment and they weren't the least bit interested.

As in they weren't interested in the money from the house or they weren't interested that it had been signed over and went after it?

I mean this is a moot point to me as I've nothing to gain, just didn't want it to hold up GF care assessment.

OP posts:
allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld · 13/04/2025 22:50

@ThisBreezySnake the seven year rule might apply and deem this not to be a deprivation of assets.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:50

Whyx · 13/04/2025 22:46

I am in Scotland but in Scottish Law the clause that would allow a house to be used by one party and then eventually be left between the three of you would be a Liferent Trust. I think it's the same in the rest of UK law. Just in case you don't have the legal wording from the Will to hand and want to look into it further.

Thank you but aside from the house and contents there is nothing to leave. I am not part of any will and just hope to have some photos etc from the house when that sad time arrives.

OP posts:
WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:47

The care assessment in my family members case was last year, so 20 years after she signed house over

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:46

A family member signed her house over to my Dad 20 years ago, expressly to avoid care home fees. She even told the council (she has dementia but didn't when she signed the house over), when having her care assessment and they weren't the least bit interested.

Whyx · 13/04/2025 22:46

I am in Scotland but in Scottish Law the clause that would allow a house to be used by one party and then eventually be left between the three of you would be a Liferent Trust. I think it's the same in the rest of UK law. Just in case you don't have the legal wording from the Will to hand and want to look into it further.

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:44

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:42

That's really interesting thank you.

For once that's something I don't need to worry about, but my Dad and uncle should!

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Indeed they should, they will have HMRC after them if its not declared on the IHT400 when he passes!