Elderly GF suddenly needing care but possible deprivation of assets issue

I do think people need to be careful when considering the future. I know someone whose partner owned their house and left it to charity 20 years ago with her agreement. She can live in it but now has significant care needs, the place is in a state of disrepair she lives in the sitting room, sleeps in a reclining arm chair and has a commode in there. Carers come by for 15 minutes four times a day. Honestly she is lonely and sad and would benefit from some sort of care home. Has no money though so has no choices. Having assets means you have the ability to choose for yourself.

@ThisBreezySnake that's brilliant news OP, glad the services have all rallied round and things are getting sorted!.

Sorry to go back to the beginning but this does sound like cognitive change to me. If he was managing ok at home before and then suddenly cant, something has changed. There might be some good access to rehab and support if he has had a stroke, it's one of the better-funded areas of health care. I hope his GP can persuade him to have a medical review and at some point you might have to take him home and let a crisis develop.

The house will definitely be classed as DOA as if it is worth approx 300k as you stated then no solicitor would have advised signing it over for inheritance tax reasons as it is nowhere near the IHT limits. In fact most solicitors would advise against this as there would be nothing to stop your GF being made homeless in event either of his sons decided to sell the property or if their personal circumstances changed e.g divorce, bankruptcy forced them to sell. The correct way if IHT was an issue would have been a trust.

The 7 year rule is for inheritance tax, not care home fees. DOA - local authorities can look back as far as they like, 20 years if needed.

Camode not canine

I’d be pushing for carers visits 4x a day and a canine downstairs for niw

but first take him out in the car and arrive at a&e take him in and get him checked out

I thought if you signed over your house to DC it no longer belonged to you and unless you paid rent for house to new owners it was seen as deliberate deprivation of assets.

Can't comment on the DOA business but I have some observations about the situation your GF is in.

Don't rule out him being manipulative. He's estranged from one DS and has a tumultuous relationship with the other. There's a good chance he was far from being Dad Of The Year to them. Your dad may be difficult, but he's also partly a product of his upbringing. He may also not be difficult at all but just reacting to your GFs behaviour towards him. Your GF so far appears manipulative to me.

He won't go upstairs because he's had a fall, which has shocked him and he's lost confidence. No other deterioration you've described, sounds like it's all just the shock of being confronted with his own mortality. He should go to A&E but if he won't there's nothing you can do about it.

Urinating in Tupperware and pouring it down the sink isn't ideal but not a lifestyle choice that's going to harm him, so long as hygiene is being maintained. Where is he defecating? I don't buy the story about soiling himself and not noticing! Or saying it rolled out of his pyjamas. So none of it was mashed into his pyjamas then? And why was it left there on the floor? To make sure you saw it? He could have knocked the table over deliberately. If it's small enough to knock over why hasn't he righted it? Again, so you could see it?

The fall could well have been genuine, I'm not disputing that, but now I reckon he's milking it, having decided he'd prefer to be looked after. He's angling to move in with you permanently. Even the "I'll go to a care home then if I can't stay" smacks of manipulation.

He's not going to a care home, without the money to pay for it it isn't his decision to make. He'll get carers at home and maybe a stairlift or else a commode and the bed brought into the living room downstairs.

He needs to go back to his own home and await the care needs assessment. If you're helping him he'll get no help. They only have to meet needs not wants, at the moment you're meeting his needs.

He can shuffle up and downstairs on his butt if he doesn't feel safe walking. You need to stop caring for him before you make yourself ill.

I’m an adult social worker. I don’t deal with the finance side. I just have to clarify whether people have over a set amount in savings and houses are only taken into consideration when the person goes into a care home. Care home if LA funded will be the last resort. The care act is based around maintaining a persons independence for as long as possible. Research and experience also shows when a person does go into a care home they often become institutionalised, and their needs increase significantly.

Your GF needs a care act assessment and an occupational therapy assesssment. He still seems very independent and adaptations and support could help him to maintain this independence at home. Maybe a bed downstairs, a commode so he can use the toilet without having to go upstairs. And a care call to support with emptying this. Or even a stair lift, are all possibilities, with the OT assessment will assess for. It’s a shame he wouldn’t go to hospital at the time of the fall, as this would have likely led to an OT referral to ensure he is safe at home. Does he assistive technology such as a falls alarm? This again will help him remain safe at home with security if anything does happens. Are there any grab rails in place.

im glad to see you have contacted social care needs can decline very quickly and the situation could change. I would never let your father’s situation stand in the way of a person receiving care in a care home if that was what was needed. But be aware the financial side can take a long time if they do investigate. However I don’t oversee this part of the process. This is done by the finance team and the legal team. I hope that helps a little and if you need any advice please ask.

If your grandfather is still as sharp as a tack he must be made to understand your situation and that his living on the sofa is untenable. He will have to accept that he has to go home or hospital to get proper assessment and help. He can’t simply ‘refuse’ as you don’t have the capacity to be his full time carer. You can explain this and do this in a caring manner - but he will have to understand that this will be the best for everyone, even if it is difficult to begin with.

As far as deprivation of assets I would not concern yourself with this issue as it was not, and is not, a concern or problem of your making. Let others deal with it as they wish; you will have no impact on the outcome of the issue either. You sound lovely OP but are taking so much responsibility for everything. I would just focus on getting your GF home and trying to obtain proper medical / social care assessment and support for him.

If he continued to live in his home without paying his sons market rent (which would be liable to income tax for them) after signing it over to them, then it is a ‘gift with reservation of benefit’ and will still be liable for inheritance tax.

Having had to deal with elderly parents/ care homes/ struggling to get them care, I have a lot of sympathy for you being in this position.

I echo pp advising he needs medical assessment.

Re money, I don't know the legal position, but morally he was trying to deprive himself off assets wasn't he? He wanted his children to inherit his house so gave it them before he died. He surely would have known this would be trying to avoid any care costs. Even a healthy 60 year old could foresee this might happen in future.

Nothing personal, and I know this isn't your doing/ you aren't gaining, but I hope LAs do go after people doing this. Why should taxpayers potentially fund his care when he has/d money he didn't want to spend. Makes a mockery of others who have to sell their homes.

I hope you get things sorted as it sounds impossible for you, but his sons need to drum up some cash for his care by selling or renting out his home.

Sounds just like the scare rhetoric used by LAs all the time, fact is, in real life, it rarely happens, most simply write off the cost and move on...

I've been dealing with care costs for 20 years, I can think of one case where the LA went after DoA, and it was a slam dunk 4 months before affair and screaming obvious.

OK, in that case make sure you read anything very carefully first - out of interest was the transfer of the property to your dad before or after he became POA?

If before no worries, if after it could be argued he acted against your GFs best interests taking the gift and could get messy...

If he had no knowledge he would need care at the time of signing the house over, it cannot be viewed as deprivation of assets, I deal with this all the time, and its not going to happen

This is utterly incorrect.

The ops GF was into his 80's when they signed the house over. An 80-odd year old being so utterly fit that they could successfully argue they could not forsee any time they would need care would be highly unusual. So that's - no arthritis, no painful knees in medical records, no GP visits about any condition at all that could potentially be progressive. That's one lucky 83 year old.

As the house was signed over 10 years ago and op's GM died 2 years later you can absolutely count on the fact that they will also be looking closely at her death. If her death was due to a condition or health issue that existed two years earlier, they could also argue DDoA on the basis of it being done to avoid the expected care needs of the wife.

There is no time-limit that LA's have. They can look back 25 years if they want. Many LA'S are utterly ruthless and will comb through every medical visit, every hospital appointment, for any comment, symptom, diagnosis or pattern that they can use.

Whilst all of this is going on of course, there will likely be solicitors fees to pay. And LA's aren't even limited by death to bring a DDoA claim. There are many, many cases where care fees have been met by the council for several years and AFTER death, this seems to be the catalyst for a review. Probate - dead in the water, held up for months or years whilst solicitor's fight it out and fees rack up.

The poster who said she 'deals with it all the time' and it definitely won't happen is lying. DoA is a minefield and I don't for one second believe that anyone routinely involved with DoA situations would never have experienced situations like this where the LA was successful or at the very least cost the family thousands of pounds to fight it.