Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Elderly parents
Original poster

MIL care costs

138 replies

NoHaudinMaWheest · 08/01/2025 14:32

As the title says this is about paying care costs for my MIL.

I feel the need to give a fair bit of background in order for the situation to be understood and also to get things clear in my own mind. That will make it quite long so advance warning if you are short of time or capacity.

MIL is now 90. She was widowed 30+ years ago and has lived alone in her own owned home since. Until she was 79 she was pretty independent, driving, doing voluntary work, visiting friends etc.
She then had to have a fairly minor operation to remove a melanoma from her leg. She was assured that it was the type that doesn't spread systematically and that it had all been removed so once her leg had healed she could go back to normal. However she developed a severe reactive depression and stopped eating and drinking and caring for herself. She ended up very ill in hospital. After a period in acute and rehab hospitals she was discharged home, physically fine but still very depressed.
When FIL died she had taken out an insurance policy which would provide care at home and so that was used to hire a live-in carer to persuade her to eat, drink, wash etc. She had quite a lot of psychiatric input but never improved.
A few years later she had a fall which resulted in much reduced mobility. Since then she has lived in one room - bed and commode in the sitting room, just moving to the kitchen for some meals. She doesn't do anything -watch TV, read, knit, sew or engage in conversation. She just worries endlessly and repetitively about eg if the heating is working properly.
She has had the live in carers all this time funded by the insurance policy and her savings. About 5 years ago her savings ran out. BIL has POA and does all her financial stuff as well as managing the carers and practial stuff for the house though no hands on care. He managed to get social services to agree to some financial support and that was enough for things to continue until about 2 years ago.
At that point the care company massively increased their fees which meant that there was a considerable shortfall. Again BIL did the negotiations which meant some increase in SS contributions but there was still not enough so he decided that he and SIL and DH and I would top up - £125 a week for each couple (increased to £150 from this month).
He and DH are adamant that their mother should not go into a home. They feel that as they will ultimately inherit her house they will get their money back.
Some years ago (at least 15) MIL sold a field adjacent to her house. BIL had done quite a lot to negotiate with the council and developers so she got quite a good amount for it, some of which she gave to us and to BIL and SIL. DH and BIL feel that that means that it is only fair for them to fund MIL now.

MIL is not exactly healthy but she doesn't have any life threatening conditions and this situation could go on for many years. DH and I are both in our later 60s and both have disabilities which we manage independently now but may not be able to in the future. In addition we have two children in their 20s with disabilities which require additional support and limit their earning capacity.

I feel that although we may inherit there is no guarantee. If MIL was to require 2 to 1 or overnight care in the future she would have to go into residential care and the house be sold anyway. We are paying this out of income and even if we don't absolutely need it for day to day living now, we have good reason to want to save what we can as well as living reasonably comfortably now.

I really resent being given no choice about this funding. I am not sure that living in isolation like this is really in MIL's best interests. And all this is skewed but the fact that I have never really liked MIL - the feeling is entirely mutual.

DH is quite passive and happy to go along with what BIL says. We live a lot further away and have the DCs to be responsible for while BIL and SIL are a bit younger, in good health and don't have children.

I don't even know what the figures are and am not sure that DH does either. Nor do I know for certain what MIL's will contains.

Saying no would cause a huge family rift but it is what I really want to do.

Any advice welcome (if you have managed to get to the end of this screed).

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Original poster
NoHaudinMaWheest · 15/01/2025 08:51

Thanks TizerorFizz.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 14/01/2025 19:50

@NoHaudinMaWheest I feel rather upset for you. Obviously his DM matters but not above the needs of your DC. He’s obviously kept some info to himself which is also unfair in the circumstances. Not sure what else to say except keep chipping away at him!

Original poster
NoHaudinMaWheest · 14/01/2025 17:17

So an update. I tried to talk to DH about things. He and BIL are convinced that MIL will not cope in a home based on her experience in a rehab unit 11 years ago! Not really open to any discussion on that. I despair.
Turns out DH does know the financial figures (in essence anyway) he just hasn't chosen to share them with me. I have pointed out the drawbacks for us and the DCs of such an open ended commitment but not really got much response. He does like to let such things percolate so there may be some come back later.
He knows the will is an even split between him and BIL.
Doesn't know for sure if BIL has H&W POA or even if he is the only one with POA. Believes MIL has capacity though I think that has to be assessed for each decision?
Looks as if I may be stuck with this situation indefinitely.

OP posts:
Original poster
NoHaudinMaWheest · 11/01/2025 00:36

TizerorFizz yes you are right. Starting this thread has brought MIL's living conditions more sharply into focus. I think taking that as my starting point with DH will get me a lot further than discussions about money.
I have a horrendous cold at the moment but that is next week's project when I am hopefully feeling more up to it.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 11/01/2025 00:03

Lots of people give money away. If her money is in her house, she needs to access it and maybe that’s what she thought years ago. She had enough for what she thought she needed. I think the other big issue is living at home though which is not satisfactory!

Original poster
NoHaudinMaWheest · 10/01/2025 23:57

Miley she has been funding herself until recently, totally at first and then with some support from SS.
When she gave that money she was fit and independent. She also had taken out an insurance policy for care costs and had still had a substantial amount of capital so thought she was covered for any future care costs. No one could have foreseen how long this situation would go on for. The average life expectancy for care home residents of the age she was then is about 5.5 years. She has been in this situation for over 11.
For what it is worth, I was not keen on taking the money but it was not my decision to make.

OP posts:
NoBinturongsHereMate · 10/01/2025 23:07

a care home would be his idea of hell - being forced to socialise with others, taking part in activities....

There's no forced socialisation. If you want to close your door and have all meals in your room alone you can. But unlike being at home alone you have choices.

Miley1967 · 10/01/2025 23:07

If she hadn't given away large chunks of money to your dh and bil she could have been funding this herself all along.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 10/01/2025 23:01

Even without taking part in activities, a care home is more sociable and stimulating than being stuck in 1 room with a single carer. My dad didn't take part in the activity programmes apart from a few days out. But different carers and the tea lady popped into his room regularly through the day and had a little chat each time. And there were always people around in the kitchen, dining room and lounges - who he could talk to or not, but there was conversation and activity going on around him.

TizerorFizz · 10/01/2025 22:35

What’s a continuous care centre? Nothing like that here. It was 7 awful weeks in a dreadful hospital, Then release and find a home!

People are not forced to join in anything! However the home had a bar which seemed to have men who enjoyed it and activities were all voluntary. All the rooms were bed sitting rooms with tvs and many people decked them out with their belongings and made them like a room at home. Residents could be as sociable or private as they liked. Nothing was forced. Not even dining with other residents. However most people think interaction with others is good snd shutting people out is shutting down on life.

Arran2024 · 10/01/2025 21:56

My father is 91 and up until 4 weeks ago was living at home with no help. Then he got admitted to hospital and it all went very wrong. Anyway, he has always been very solitary and a care home would be his idea of hell - being forced to socialise with others, taking part in activities....

He has never wanted friends and was happy entirely on his own when my mum died.

Not saying care homes aren't great for many people but not for everyone.

( As it happens my dad has his own room in an NHS continuous care centre and doesn't have to interact with anyone other than nurses).

Crikeyalmighty · 10/01/2025 21:48

@TizerorFizz I so agree - my FIL is85 and has just sold his house 200 miles away and bought a good sized bungalow 12 miles from us in a 'trendy ' town - due to exchange hopefully next week - he's still'all there' - intelligent, clean, fun , smart and we've had this chat already - he wants us to draw down and live in care at home or somewhere smart and sociable if he's got all his marbles ( as he put it) - it's bloody hard isn't it as it's weirdly depressing discussing it but kind of has to be done to do the best by them

fashionqueen0123 · 10/01/2025 21:11

NoHaudinMaWheest · 10/01/2025 19:35

TizerorFizz it is good to hear that your DM's last months were good in the care home.
MIL has always been a very negative person so it may be true as BIL and SIL seem to think that she wouldn't engage with anyone or any activities in a home. However she would have more stimulation and the opportunity to engage if she wanted. At the moment she is firmly stuck in a very deep rut.

It surely can not be worse than her living conditions now. I would come from the angle of we can’t possibly let your mother live like this anymore. We will all come to regret it. It’s not a life is it. It sounds like she is just existing. Your Bil should not let his mum be in a house where she can’t have a proper shower for goodness sakes.

TizerorFizz · 10/01/2025 19:55

@NoHaudinMaWheest I won’t pretend it doesn’t require a shift in attitude. It absolutely does. However even the most reluctant person seems to join in with something. Having a chat over coffee and not worrying about cooking was very pleasant for DM. The home had a great garden and lots of families visited residents and had tea in the garden. It just seemed a calmer way of living at a great age. I think you have to look at lots of things with homes but it’s not impossible to find a good one and peace of mind which you cannot really have at the moment.

Original poster
NoHaudinMaWheest · 10/01/2025 19:35

TizerorFizz it is good to hear that your DM's last months were good in the care home.
MIL has always been a very negative person so it may be true as BIL and SIL seem to think that she wouldn't engage with anyone or any activities in a home. However she would have more stimulation and the opportunity to engage if she wanted. At the moment she is firmly stuck in a very deep rut.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 10/01/2025 18:26

@Crikeyalmighty Unfortunately as people get very old their friends die. My DM reached 100 but even younger friends had died. The last one going was a disaster because you do end up realising carers or relatives are all who are left and relatives aren’t always handy or caring. DM did spend her last 6 months in a home and it was a huge relief. As I said earlier, access to a GP was a big bonus. Kind staff who chatted and other residents made her life so much better than home. Neighbours at home were nice people but busy and she wasn’t their responsibility.

Like many she had adopted the mantra of living st home come whet may, but 4 visits a day was never going to be ok. She was intelligent and needed stimulation. Her health improved so much at the home they included her in their group that went to the local theatre for the panto last year. Unfortunately she got a terminal illness last Feb and thank God she wasn’t at home. She was 10 mins drive from me in the home and it was such a relief to have her there. I think the DM here might well improve for stimulation.

Crikeyalmighty · 10/01/2025 15:32

The way some people post its as if many older people are having a fab life at home , getting out and about, having great meals , lots of mates meeting up etc - if the situation was like that then care homes wouldn't usually even be on the agenda - it's only usually on the agenda because someone's health and personal care needs are beyond the level of family coping , no family to help at all or their are constant falls/dementia etc excluding of course well off physically and mentally pensioners who make the choice for themselves ( and usually pick apartment or bungalow complexes with extra care) For many older people with big health issues it can be safer and more social - depending on the quality of care of course .

OnceMoreWithAttitude · 10/01/2025 15:14

A loan could work?

A signed agreement that your MIL owes money for care now - and that loan to be repaid out of her estate before anything else? Or to be re-paid on sale of house?

Seadragonusgiganticusmaximus · 10/01/2025 14:23

if you are hoping to be “repaid” from the estate then I would not want to rely on a will, even if you have seen it. Wills can be changed at any time.

If you are going to continue to fund MIL then I’d explore the idea of it being a loan - effectively setting up a private equity release scheme, although probably on much better terms than MIL would get if she went to a commercial provider.

Holesintheground · 10/01/2025 14:12

MereDintofPandiculation · 10/01/2025 11:44

People like to say how awful care homes are and how they would never do that to their parents. But I’m sorry, a lot of these parents are suffering much more because of this attitude. Give people some basic dignity in their final years.

Very true. I dread the thought of a care home and losing autonomous access to the outside world, having full choice of food, sleeping hours, etc. But once I've physically lost those choices anyway, spending hours on my own in a room with a commode is no way to live,

When my father went into the care home he was given breakfast; mid morning coffee with biscuits; two course hot lunch; mid afternoon tea and cake; two-course hot tea. His medications were delivered on time. That's not achievable on 4 visits a day.

When my father went into the care home he was given breakfast; mid morning coffee with biscuits; two course hot lunch; mid afternoon tea and cake; two-course hot tea. His medications were delivered on time. That's not achievable on 4 visits a day.

Same with mine. He had his own en suite bathroom that was cleaned for him, was showered, shaved and dressed in clean clothes daily, had his own TV to watch and privacy in his room. And importantly, he was safe from falling or becoming ill where no one would have seen or been aware or able to help him for hours - I was two hours away and had many a fearful moment when he didn't answer the phone picturing him lying unconscious or unable to move. He had fall alarms but through repeated falls never once used them. His safety and quality of life were much better in the care home, even though for various dementia related reasons he wouldn't have admitted that.

MereDintofPandiculation · 10/01/2025 11:44

People like to say how awful care homes are and how they would never do that to their parents. But I’m sorry, a lot of these parents are suffering much more because of this attitude. Give people some basic dignity in their final years.

Very true. I dread the thought of a care home and losing autonomous access to the outside world, having full choice of food, sleeping hours, etc. But once I've physically lost those choices anyway, spending hours on my own in a room with a commode is no way to live,

When my father went into the care home he was given breakfast; mid morning coffee with biscuits; two course hot lunch; mid afternoon tea and cake; two-course hot tea. His medications were delivered on time. That's not achievable on 4 visits a day.

MereDintofPandiculation · 10/01/2025 11:36

I didn't have any CQC "outstanding" in my area, but a selection of good. I wouldn't have accepted less. Dad was an emergency admission (he declined very suddenly), and I was thinking he could go in temporarily and I could move him to somewhere better, but decided the manager and staff were so good that I couldn't get an improvement that was worth the disruption to him of moving him. This is a nursing home, so physical facilities aren't as important as the quality of the staff. Increasing care levels wasn't important - he doesn't have dementia, but he was very cognitively impaired, physically frail, and in need of the nursing care, so already past the care home level. I'm confident they can take him through to end of life.

Additional positives for me were a) it's only a couple of miles away, so I can visit regularly, and can walk there in the snow. b) the staff are happy to do whatever is needed - I can grab anyone and say "Dad needs his juice topping up/ a flower vase/is complaining of pain" and they will sort it, there's no "can you go and ask the kitchen/one of the housekeeping staff/a nurse". c) the manager is visible and hands on d) not only do all the staff know all the residents, they know all the regular visitors too.

It isn't a converted Edwardian vicarage, it's a converted and extended 18th C farmhouse Grin

GnomeDePlume · 10/01/2025 10:22

@NoHaudinMaWheest it was tricky at the time. We got through it by me keeping asking the same questions and checking what he had included. Importantly I never got cross with him.

DM was in fact well able to afford the care home we found for her. Sadly she is now back in hospital and I have my doubts that she will come out again. However, having her space in the care home does feel like we are ready if she does make it out.

@MereDintofPandiculation I paid quite a lot of attention to CQC ratings. It probably depends on the area but in my area the low CQC rated homes are at the lower end of the price range and tend to be converted edwardian vicarage type places.

My preference was for somewhere purpose built. It was also important to me that it offered the option of increasing care levels.

MissDoubleU · 10/01/2025 10:15

EmotionalBlackmail · 10/01/2025 08:10

It sounds like she has such a miserable existence. No wonder she's depressed. She hasn't been able to bath or shower for FIVE YEARS because of not being able to manage the stairs? And she's existing in one room with a commode and a live-in carer?

She would be so much better off in a home! They have been an overwhelmingly positive experience for us - one of my relatives chose to go into one and really blossomed. Regular, varied proper meals (how good is the carer at cooking - IME they're variable, or is she living on freezer meals) cooked by someone whose job it is to cook appetising meals for elderly people. Company of she wants it - the care homes we used encouraged residents to sit together and encouraged shared interests. Activities, visitors from outside. One of them runs a toddler group in the home! She would see so many more people and have so much more to take an interest in! And she'd be able to shower regularly. It doesn't sound like the POA is acting in her best interests by keeping her at home isolated and miserable.

What happens if your or your DH's health suddenly deteriorates and you absolutely must stop paying the monthly amount because you need it for your needs? Or your children's needs?

This is EXACTLY what I’ve tried to say. My father has been in a care home since age 60 (severe disabilities) and he has a very rich life. I said this already but reiterating. He is surrounded by people, gets taken out on day trips, they have theatre groups/musicians/comedians/all sorts come to the home and perform. He has many friends there his own age, and at a similar capacity to himself. He is always talking away to the care staff themselves. The decorate for all the holidays, have parties, help with hobbies. He had no money, it is fully funded by SS. If he was stuck in one room all day with one person there to care for him, if he couldn’t wash or have outdoor access, I can’t imagine how miserable his life would be.

People like to say how awful care homes are and how they would never do that to their parents. But I’m sorry, a lot of these parents are suffering much more because of this attitude. Give people some basic dignity in their final years.

TizerorFizz · 10/01/2025 09:58

@NoHaudinMaWheest I think your BIL has far too much control but your DH isn’t close enough to do anything about it. Why doesn’t she have a stair lift for example? I don’t know how your DH can stand by and accept that this situation is ok. Let alone pay for it. No live in carers are cheap. They must be costing a fortune. Somebody needs to get a backbone and get MIL a better quality of life.