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Elderly parents
Original poster

What next please with 92 yr old father

63 replies

Dogwitjstripes · 02/12/2024 22:18

Asking for some sage advice from the Elderly Care experts on here please.

DF is 92 next May, living independently and has been widowed for 25 years. Has coped remarkably well for the most part, still cooks for himself, dresses, no carers and drove until relatively recently. Rarely has falls but has been diagnosed with mixed vascular dementia and alzheimers. He doesn't present too badly with it for the most part but he's suddenly become frantic about dying and not coping.

I have a sibling and we get on very well but both live a distance away in two different directions, neither of us get on particular well with DF, I have had a very torturous relationship with him all my life but he's on his own so....

He trialled a care home last year for a month but hated it and came back out again, he's refusing carers and only wants the two of us in the house, it's impossible for us to go very often to visit but he's not bathing for fear of drowning, emailing us every night begging us to go down (can't phone him as always ends in horrific hours long arguments). I know I should probably post this on the Stately Homes thread in a way because the poor relationship clouds what we can or are prepared to do but does anyone have experience of what in general can be done or what is likely to happen next? He has a cleaner and she takes him food shopping occasionally, he refuses to let me organise an on line food shop, refuses to allow a taxi to take him to the shops (he has the financial means).

I've read loads of threads on this board over the years and most seem to say that it won't change until a real emergency occurs, is that the case for the most part do you all think?

TIA

OP posts:
GOODCAT · 04/12/2024 17:04

Would he try respite care in a different place to the one he tried before. A decent nursing home can make such a huge difference.

Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 16:58

Fraaahnces · 04/12/2024 14:54

You have to strategize…. When they call, tell them that you only have ten minutes (or five minutes, or fifteen if you’re generous) to talk because you’re going out/expecting a call/expecting a visitor/ whatever…. I did this with my mum. Much empathy.
I limited her moaning to ten mins. She was unwilling to make the changes she needed. I was unwilling to be her sounding board - let’s be honest, I’d never been a person to her, I was just the only one left. When she got to ten mins, I would interrupt and tell her that I had to go. I had a billion reasons why - and often I would tell her it was because I had been listening to her moaning for ten minutes every day for two weeks and she hadn’t asked me a single thing about my life, so I was not going to waste any more time I couldn’t get back with people who didn’t care about me. Guaranteed the next day I would get a perfunctory “So…. How are things? Well, I blah, blah, blah…”. (The classic “Enough about you, let’s talk about me.”)

We can't talk on the phone, ends in 2 hours long arguments. I knocked that on the head about 3 years ago...we email daily which takes the heat out of things slightly
..

OP posts:
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 16:56

MichaelandKirk · 04/12/2024 14:49

I ended up not discussing the way things would be done. Other wise you go round and round in circles. If they wanted something sorted I would do it on MY terms. Your Father sounds like he likes to moan and gain attention. Dont give it. It’s their way of getting control.

God, I sound like a right cow!

Yes agree, I have a perfume called My Way which I always wear when I go there!

OP posts:
Fraaahnces · 04/12/2024 14:54

You have to strategize…. When they call, tell them that you only have ten minutes (or five minutes, or fifteen if you’re generous) to talk because you’re going out/expecting a call/expecting a visitor/ whatever…. I did this with my mum. Much empathy.
I limited her moaning to ten mins. She was unwilling to make the changes she needed. I was unwilling to be her sounding board - let’s be honest, I’d never been a person to her, I was just the only one left. When she got to ten mins, I would interrupt and tell her that I had to go. I had a billion reasons why - and often I would tell her it was because I had been listening to her moaning for ten minutes every day for two weeks and she hadn’t asked me a single thing about my life, so I was not going to waste any more time I couldn’t get back with people who didn’t care about me. Guaranteed the next day I would get a perfunctory “So…. How are things? Well, I blah, blah, blah…”. (The classic “Enough about you, let’s talk about me.”)

MichaelandKirk · 04/12/2024 14:49

I ended up not discussing the way things would be done. Other wise you go round and round in circles. If they wanted something sorted I would do it on MY terms. Your Father sounds like he likes to moan and gain attention. Dont give it. It’s their way of getting control.

God, I sound like a right cow!

Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 14:42

MichaelandKirk · 04/12/2024 14:39

Have been through this twice! Keep boundaries. The very elderly will take massive liberties and I am sorry to sound harsh but they will become incredibly self absorbed and want things done the way they want them or throw a massive tantrum.

Please look free yourself and not allow them to take over your life

His capacity for being self absorbed is quite extraordinary yes. How did you survive two??!

OP posts:
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 14:41

PineappleCoconut · 04/12/2024 14:40

My DF could pay too, he was just too old/stubborn/independent/frugal - the 'free' money was the push he needed to overcome his unwillingness. I think AA also would qualify him for winter fuel allowance now it's not universal, which would have pleaded DF to, in his view, get one over on the government Grin

The forms are awfully long. Get CAB to help you with it.

Shame that you cleaner can't do more hours, but ask if she knows any home help. Or another place to ask is the local dementia cafe. With DF alongside his cleaner we started with a lady who 'just popped in to make him a hot lunch'.

Your first paragraph so resonates!

OP posts:
PineappleCoconut · 04/12/2024 14:40

My DF could pay too, he was just too old/stubborn/independent/frugal - the 'free' money was the push he needed to overcome his unwillingness. I think AA also would qualify him for winter fuel allowance now it's not universal, which would have pleaded DF to, in his view, get one over on the government Grin

The forms are awfully long. Get CAB to help you with it.

Shame that you cleaner can't do more hours, but ask if she knows any home help. Or another place to ask is the local dementia cafe. With DF alongside his cleaner we started with a lady who 'just popped in to make him a hot lunch'.

MichaelandKirk · 04/12/2024 14:39

Have been through this twice! Keep boundaries. The very elderly will take massive liberties and I am sorry to sound harsh but they will become incredibly self absorbed and want things done the way they want them or throw a massive tantrum.

Please look free yourself and not allow them to take over your life

Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 14:27

PineappleCoconut · 04/12/2024 14:17

My father was very similar.

It's very hard for you, more so with distance.

What helped with my father was bringing in 'not carers'. Starting with his cleaner, who as you've found ends up doing more and more, then we found a home help, & a sort of elders' personal assistant. As long as we avoided the 'carer' label he was more willing to accept 'help'.

Has he got Attendance Allowance & the council tax disregard for dementia/Severe Mental Impairment? With both I persuaded him that the help he received cost him nothing/was free.

Not got AA will chase that thank you. Re the carers, he could pay, just can't countenance the idea. Personal Assistant is a great idea, unfortunately his cleaner has a fairly chaotic life of her own otherwise I'd almost pay her anything to step in!

OP posts:
PineappleCoconut · 04/12/2024 14:17

My father was very similar.

It's very hard for you, more so with distance.

What helped with my father was bringing in 'not carers'. Starting with his cleaner, who as you've found ends up doing more and more, then we found a home help, & a sort of elders' personal assistant. As long as we avoided the 'carer' label he was more willing to accept 'help'.

Has he got Attendance Allowance & the council tax disregard for dementia/Severe Mental Impairment? With both I persuaded him that the help he received cost him nothing/was free.

Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 13:46

Soonenough · 03/12/2024 22:56

I had a great relationship with my father but I still couldn't manage to do more than you are doing right now . The lack of control over your life , home , status are so overwhelming in the elderly. Uncooperative behaviour is a common theme here . He wants only you and your sister as he might feel that he will have some say over his affairs . Strangers that he doesn't know or trust must be frightening for him.

You have had some very useful advice here. This is a whole new path for you all but the professionals have dealt with this so many times before . He will be made aware of his options and hopefully he will allow a care package to avoid residential care . The carers won't have a problem with the state of the house provided it is basically hygienic enough .

Thank you for saying that it's made me feel a lot better! The guilt for not doing more and finding it hard to do more is incredible. A lot of FOG.

I so hope he will accept some help, he's just so reluctant but I get what you're saying about us being familiar and carers being strangers. We are definitely not going to be caring for him though which we suspect strongly is all he will settle for ..... not happening though!

OP posts:
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 04/12/2024 13:43

SlB09 · 03/12/2024 22:50

So to be practical:

-establish POA for health and welfare as well as finance, this is essential for things to go smoothly later on (if he will at all consent).

  • search if you have an admiral nurse (dementia specialist) in your local area and get in touch with them, they provide support to you and most importantly your dad and are really well versed in this kind of situation
  • sounds like gp's are still treating him quite proactively which is making me think he comes across as quite well generally? I wonder if you taking him to appointments is actually hindering adequate response as no one is seeing the reality of his life. Would he be housebound if you didn't/couldn't take him? I.e meaning gp/district nurses would need to visit at home?
  • when was he diagnosed with dementia? If still under memory clinic they would be very well placed to review his anxiety which is a really common symptom of his condition and treat accordingly. If remains under them you can ring yourself, if not would need re referring - ideal opportunity to bring this issue up with GP.
  • is he self neglecting? You can raise this through your local safeguarding adults route through the council meaning they will assess his situation, his capacity to live as he is/make unwise decisions etc and go from there re care decisions. Someone needs to check he's taking his medications correctly - again he needs someone with eyes on to see him inside his own home.
  • you can book a free safety visit from the fire brigade which he may accept to double check the safety of the home
  • don't feel bad about not wanting to be massively involved or have a fantastic relationship, it is very frequently the case and not unusual at all. I admire those who still ensure parents are safe after difficult relationships.

Thank you SO much for taking the time to type out all this information, so useful and kind of you.

  1. We don't have POA for Health only financial, will look at this.
  2. I'd never heard of an Admiral Nurse, I've had contact with the memory clinic so wondering if I could pursue through them.
  3. We only take him to the odd appointment due to living a distance away so he sees the GP independently most of the time. He prints off great long sheets of ailments that he presents on every visit. He wouldn't be housebound as such, has a couple of church friends who will take him if we can't plus he's actually quite mobile, just walking with a stick.
  4. He was diagnosed with dementia about a year ago? I can get back in touch with the Memory Clinic again and hope he's still under them but got a feeling they discharged him, I could be misremembering though.
  5. He's able to have the odd bath, didn't ever future proof his house so no shower or anything as useful as that. He does wash his clothes and always well presented.
  6. My sibling is a nurse and she goes through all his medication with him on a fairly regular basis and we think he takes everything pretty methodically.
  7. The Alzheimers Society sent their representative around and she mentioned the Fire Brigade, I think it would send him into a complete tizz if they visited though as think it would take around 4 hours she said! He'd never carry out any of the recommendations but does have smoke and C02 alarms installed.

Thank you again x

OP posts:
Soonenough · 03/12/2024 22:56

I had a great relationship with my father but I still couldn't manage to do more than you are doing right now . The lack of control over your life , home , status are so overwhelming in the elderly. Uncooperative behaviour is a common theme here . He wants only you and your sister as he might feel that he will have some say over his affairs . Strangers that he doesn't know or trust must be frightening for him.

You have had some very useful advice here. This is a whole new path for you all but the professionals have dealt with this so many times before . He will be made aware of his options and hopefully he will allow a care package to avoid residential care . The carers won't have a problem with the state of the house provided it is basically hygienic enough .

SlB09 · 03/12/2024 22:50

So to be practical:

-establish POA for health and welfare as well as finance, this is essential for things to go smoothly later on (if he will at all consent).

  • search if you have an admiral nurse (dementia specialist) in your local area and get in touch with them, they provide support to you and most importantly your dad and are really well versed in this kind of situation
  • sounds like gp's are still treating him quite proactively which is making me think he comes across as quite well generally? I wonder if you taking him to appointments is actually hindering adequate response as no one is seeing the reality of his life. Would he be housebound if you didn't/couldn't take him? I.e meaning gp/district nurses would need to visit at home?
  • when was he diagnosed with dementia? If still under memory clinic they would be very well placed to review his anxiety which is a really common symptom of his condition and treat accordingly. If remains under them you can ring yourself, if not would need re referring - ideal opportunity to bring this issue up with GP.
  • is he self neglecting? You can raise this through your local safeguarding adults route through the council meaning they will assess his situation, his capacity to live as he is/make unwise decisions etc and go from there re care decisions. Someone needs to check he's taking his medications correctly - again he needs someone with eyes on to see him inside his own home.
  • you can book a free safety visit from the fire brigade which he may accept to double check the safety of the home
  • don't feel bad about not wanting to be massively involved or have a fantastic relationship, it is very frequently the case and not unusual at all. I admire those who still ensure parents are safe after difficult relationships.
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 03/12/2024 22:35

I8toys · 03/12/2024 19:40

Its so frustrating when they won't accept help. I would say to him that its best that you help him declutter now because if he goes into a nursing home and loses capacity you will be sorting all his stuff out and will have no clue of the worth or value of objects. We had the in laws 4 bed detached house and double garage to sort out and we chucked so much away. They hoarded everything and kept their parents things as well. If I see one more set of bowls.

I think he'd just go into orbit if we tried that now, it's both too late and too early if that makes sense?

OP posts:
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 03/12/2024 22:33

AluckyEllie · 03/12/2024 19:58

It sounds like he’s panicking about the reality of independence slipping away. He’s making excuses as to why he can’t leave the house. The house is familiar to him, you and your sibling are familiar and so that’s why he wants you both. His dementia is probably advancing, and he’s realising it.

I don’t really have any answers as if he has capacity he can refuse carers/assessment etc. You almost have to wait until it’s advanced to a stage you can activate the POA. Speak to your sibling and work out a plan for when that happens (what care home/ sorting out the house etc.)

I think you're right and although I've always had a pretty bad relationship with him it's very upsetting to witness 😔

OP posts:
AluckyEllie · 03/12/2024 19:58

It sounds like he’s panicking about the reality of independence slipping away. He’s making excuses as to why he can’t leave the house. The house is familiar to him, you and your sibling are familiar and so that’s why he wants you both. His dementia is probably advancing, and he’s realising it.

I don’t really have any answers as if he has capacity he can refuse carers/assessment etc. You almost have to wait until it’s advanced to a stage you can activate the POA. Speak to your sibling and work out a plan for when that happens (what care home/ sorting out the house etc.)

I8toys · 03/12/2024 19:40

Its so frustrating when they won't accept help. I would say to him that its best that you help him declutter now because if he goes into a nursing home and loses capacity you will be sorting all his stuff out and will have no clue of the worth or value of objects. We had the in laws 4 bed detached house and double garage to sort out and we chucked so much away. They hoarded everything and kept their parents things as well. If I see one more set of bowls.

Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 03/12/2024 09:52

Mosaic123 · 03/12/2024 09:36

If he is living in a mess he might feel better if things were organised better. Difficult to achieve though unless you are willing to help and he is willing to let you. Could you take a few days off work and supervise a deep clean and repairs to the house? I imagine it feels overwhelming for him.

He won't let us, we've tried numerous times and it just ends in heated arguments which are just horrible for everyone and unfortunately achieve nothing. He has actually got a cleaner but there's 40 years of stuff plus his parents stuff in the loft that he never dealt with. He used to laugh that we'd have to sort it out but now he's saying he's got to stay there to deal with it all otherwise we will have to which is hilarious really.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 03/12/2024 09:49

timetoreset · 03/12/2024 06:53

This will get worse and probably quite quickly. He must know that, but can't cope with the thought, so he's taking the ostrich approach.
I would get SS involved so they can have the difficult conversation. Ring them and give them the full background. The it's not coming from you.
If he's showing real signs of being a danger to himself, they can put a 'Deprivation of liberty' order on him to take him into care. I think that's a last resort though. Hopefully they'll talk sense into him before that though

Definitely procrastinating to a degree you cannot imagine, it's so frustrating

OP posts:
Original poster
Dogwitjstripes · 03/12/2024 09:49

countrygirl99 · 03/12/2024 06:23

As he is seeing the GP regularly send them.an email with details about his anxiety. He is unlikely to raise it as an issue himself but it will enable the GP to consider whether medication will help when they next see him.

I will, when we took him last week they got obsessed with his irregular heartbeat which he's had for ages, I had mentioned panic attacks but she wasn't interested and I didn't want to pursue too heavily in front of him

OP posts:
Mosaic123 · 03/12/2024 09:36

If he is living in a mess he might feel better if things were organised better. Difficult to achieve though unless you are willing to help and he is willing to let you. Could you take a few days off work and supervise a deep clean and repairs to the house? I imagine it feels overwhelming for him.

unsync · 03/12/2024 07:30

Get the legal stuff sorted. Do you also have Health & Welfare PoA? You're going to need that with a dementia diagnosis. Is he in receipt of AA? If not, get that sorted out asap.

AgeUK website is a great resource for next steps. If no family locally, you can ask SS for an assessment, but if he's over the threshold, they will just tell you to find private help.

timetoreset · 03/12/2024 06:53

This will get worse and probably quite quickly. He must know that, but can't cope with the thought, so he's taking the ostrich approach.
I would get SS involved so they can have the difficult conversation. Ring them and give them the full background. The it's not coming from you.
If he's showing real signs of being a danger to himself, they can put a 'Deprivation of liberty' order on him to take him into care. I think that's a last resort though. Hopefully they'll talk sense into him before that though