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Elderly parents

Deprivation of Assets ??

32 replies

moonsquirrel · 12/11/2024 13:52

I would be grateful if you could clarify if this situation might be viewed as deprivation of assets by the Local Authority.

A bit of background:
My widowed mother (86 years) had to sell the family house to buy an accessible flat in Aug 2021 as her mobility was suffering. The house title deeds were jointly in my mother and my brother's names as had been the case from purchase some 38 years prior, but my brother, having fallen out with my mother at the end of 2020, wanted no interest in the proceeds of the house sale and agreed that the whole £180,000 was all paid to her. She bought the Flat in Oct 2021 for £96,000 and gave me my brother’s half share, £90,000 in Jan 2022. I put the £90,000 towards a rental property to help provide income for our household (me, my wife and two teenage sons) as our self-employment had suffered during and after the Covid restrictions.

My mother's mobility has deteriorated and may have to go into residential care in the near future, which would mean selling her flat to pay for it & would then be subject to a financial review by the Local Authority, would the £90,000 that was my brother’s share be included as part of her assets or would this be treated as separate?

Question:
Will the £90,000 which we have invested in our rental property have to be handed back to pay for any ongoing care for my mother?

OP posts:
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OneOliveEagle · 14/11/2024 00:25

In the absence of any documentation, normal practice would be to swear a Statutory Declaration.

In order to do this, you’ll need to gather as much documentary evidence as possible.

Do an exhaustive search for any paperwork… evidence what you attempted to do even if it proves fruitless. Ask your brother if he kept any copies. Copy of Land Registry records. Receipt of monies. Details of the sale. Get it all together and put it in a bullet-point time line of brief paragraphs eg in Year X the property was bought jointly right up to its sale and the distribution of funds.

This may prove very useful to you in the future.

KnigCnut · 13/11/2024 21:44

My understanding, which could be wrong, is that the onus is on the local authority to prove that there was a deliberate attempt to reduce her assets. I.e. she knew she was likely to need the money when she made the transfer.

Are you still in contact with your brother? Would he have any documents showing it was his money and that he wanted it to be gifted to you?

Mum5net · 13/11/2024 21:07

Soontobe60 · 13/11/2024 18:18

When you bought your rental property you would have had to prove where the money to buy it was coming from. This is to do with money laundering.
the conveyancer your mum used to sell the house would have been obliged to pay your brothers share directly to him. So, there will be a paper trail showing his share being paid to his and your mum, then your mum gifting you this amount. The legal team at the LA will be able to trace all this information.
If your mum is still paying care home fees when her savings fall to £23,750, they will certainly investigate. At that point deprivation of assets will be considered. You may indeed have to hand over that money, but it’s likely to be that rather than sell the rental you’d have to pay her fees as if she were self funding.
Sadly, people fail to understand the implications of handing over substantial amounts in later life.

This is the worst case scenario, though.
It might not necessarily play out this way
You could leave it all to chance or, OP, would you consider saving the rental income for fees from now onwards?
Remember someone will have to pay tax on the income.

catofglory · 13/11/2024 18:27

rather than sell the rental you’d have to pay her fees as if she were self funding

Unless she has a spare £4500 a month, which seems unlikely, she'll have to sell the rental to fund it.

Soontobe60 · 13/11/2024 18:18

When you bought your rental property you would have had to prove where the money to buy it was coming from. This is to do with money laundering.
the conveyancer your mum used to sell the house would have been obliged to pay your brothers share directly to him. So, there will be a paper trail showing his share being paid to his and your mum, then your mum gifting you this amount. The legal team at the LA will be able to trace all this information.
If your mum is still paying care home fees when her savings fall to £23,750, they will certainly investigate. At that point deprivation of assets will be considered. You may indeed have to hand over that money, but it’s likely to be that rather than sell the rental you’d have to pay her fees as if she were self funding.
Sadly, people fail to understand the implications of handing over substantial amounts in later life.

catofglory · 13/11/2024 18:17

She wouldn't need LA funding until after January 2026 so it would be 4 years after the sale/money gifting.

As @Mum5net it is impossible to predict how far back the council will want to check bank accounts. In my mother's case they only asked for 3 months, but in other cases they go back years.

Theunamedcat · 13/11/2024 18:07

Is your brother on good terms with you? Would he be prepared to sign a paper stating he gifted it to you?

AlohaRose · 13/11/2024 17:59

The problem is that if your brother refused his share and gifted it back to his mother then that £90k became hers, which she further gifted to you. So it could be considered deprivation of assets as less than two years later she potentially needs residential care and if her only asset now is the flat that money is going to run out quickly.

moonsquirrel · 13/11/2024 15:07

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/11/2024 13:07

Do you know the circumstances of the solicitor ceasing trading? Did they amalgamate with another firm. or did they transfer clients' affairs to another firm? Some emails to other local firms asking whether they took over this firms clients might get some info (email rather than phone call is it's more likely to find its way to someone who might know).

As someone said, land registry might show something - it's a few pounds to get a copy of the record.

Did your brother's share go to your mother as a gift to her? Or did it go to her as a simpler way of handling a gift from your brother to you (it might have been difficult to get his share paid to you, but easier to get his share paid to her.)?

No mention of the solicitor amalgamating, so maybe a case of transferred to another firm.
My brothers share was never a gift from him to me, so I presume he gifted to her.

OP posts:
MereDintofPandiculation · 13/11/2024 13:07

moonsquirrel · 13/11/2024 11:30

Some of the paperwork relating to this are at a Solicitors who are no longer trading so not sure how to get these; does anyone have any thoughts on how to get the paperwork back?

Do you know the circumstances of the solicitor ceasing trading? Did they amalgamate with another firm. or did they transfer clients' affairs to another firm? Some emails to other local firms asking whether they took over this firms clients might get some info (email rather than phone call is it's more likely to find its way to someone who might know).

As someone said, land registry might show something - it's a few pounds to get a copy of the record.

Did your brother's share go to your mother as a gift to her? Or did it go to her as a simpler way of handling a gift from your brother to you (it might have been difficult to get his share paid to you, but easier to get his share paid to her.)?

Mum5net · 13/11/2024 12:30

Assuming you can prove that DM only had 50% title, you are in a very strong position.
I agree with@catofglory 's advice that the time to discuss with her Council SW team is when her funds are approaching the £23,500 mark - so maybe around £30,000.
Her Council's SW may or may not request her bank statements for the period Oct 21- Jan 22.
Some Councils will want to see them, others will not. None of us on this board can say. If you search back Elderly Parent threads on this subject, quite literally, the documentation asked for up and down the country varies.
This is the bit in your OP that I think you need to consider.
She bought the Flat in Oct 2021 for £96,000 and gave me my brother’s half share, £90,000 in Jan 2022.
You might be asked to produce a valid reason why DM held on to all the funds for these four months. It could truthfully just be as simple as DM being incredibly stressed at the physical move, settling into a new place, then Xmas hit and it took until January.
As @Loopytiles says, the money could be viewed within the scope of DM's assets if you can't easily explain.

Loopytiles · 13/11/2024 12:00

From the info in your OP it seems that your mother gave you ‘your brother’s’ share of the money from the property sale, after your brother gave his share to her. So IMO that’d be clearly within the scope of your mother’s assets.

Mum5net · 13/11/2024 11:54

catofglory · 12/11/2024 14:05

If there is clear documentation that your mother only owned half the house, then it isn't Social Service's business what happened to your brother's share.

You don't have to worry about this until your mother's savings go below £23k, as that is the point when the Local Authority step in to take on the funding. You will then have to fill in a lengthy form about her financial status for SS, so answer the questions honestly but don't give them any information they have not actually asked for.

This is very important advice. Absolutely only answer the questions posed directly and keep your answers short and factual.

Mum5net · 13/11/2024 11:48

No idea on how to get the paperwork back, however will land registry records show the house was previously owned by two people? Would you be able to get a print off or copy and have it sitting in your file?

moonsquirrel · 13/11/2024 11:30

OneOliveEagle · 13/11/2024 00:02

In order to sell the property your brother would have had to also sign the Contract and Transfer Deed. I assume that there must have been something in writing from your brother that he wanted nothing from the house sale and all proceeds would go to your mother.

I’d get a copy of the Solicitor’s file and all related paperwork to see what was said and go from there.

Some of the paperwork relating to this are at a Solicitors who are no longer trading so not sure how to get these; does anyone have any thoughts on how to get the paperwork back?

OP posts:
moonsquirrel · 13/11/2024 11:13

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/11/2024 09:53

In case it’s useful to anyone else, even if you’re having a LA needs assessment, you do not have to have a financial assessment if you know you’re self funding, despite the impression that may be given by the SW.

I think that's really useful to know, thank you.

OP posts:
MereDintofPandiculation · 13/11/2024 09:53

In case it’s useful to anyone else, even if you’re having a LA needs assessment, you do not have to have a financial assessment if you know you’re self funding, despite the impression that may be given by the SW.

catofglory · 13/11/2024 08:59

If the flat sells for £90k, there will be £67k left for care. In a care home that will last 15 months if she's lucky. And IME you need to apply to SS at least 4 months before you reach the £23k threshhold to give them time to do the financial assessment.

BibbityBobbityToo · 13/11/2024 00:37

As she'll be paying for her own care for a few years at least I wouldn't get too bogged down with it.

The capital from selling her current property, savings and ongoing pension income will keep her in funds without needing a financial assessment from social work.

OneOliveEagle · 13/11/2024 00:02

In order to sell the property your brother would have had to also sign the Contract and Transfer Deed. I assume that there must have been something in writing from your brother that he wanted nothing from the house sale and all proceeds would go to your mother.

I’d get a copy of the Solicitor’s file and all related paperwork to see what was said and go from there.

yeesh · 12/11/2024 22:49

There is no clear cut answer as every local authority will have its own rules and how much contribution mum is required to pay will also depend on where you live in the uk. Someone posted about £23000 up thread but that only applies to England fir example.

moonsquirrel · 12/11/2024 22:45

Thank you to all for sharing your thoughts and experience, there are differing views and it doesn't seem clear cut. If anyone else has experienced a similar situation your opinions would be greatfully appreciated.

OP posts:
Egggnoggg · 12/11/2024 20:16

The council will ask for the completion statement. If this shows your mother received the whole £180,000.00 was paid to her and she then transferred half to you then the council will investigate deprivation of assets. If she only recieved half and your brothers half went directly to you without touching your mother's account then it won't be deprivation.

IHateClothesShopping · 12/11/2024 19:50

Sounds like she only owned half the house so only got half the funds.
So I think you are in the clear.

On the topic of local authorities - I can answer this as I have been through it with my own mum and the topic comes up on mumsnet from time to time.

When my mum was going into a carehome the local authority did an assessment to see if she had to pay and if so how much. They only asked for 6 months worth of bank statements to make their assessment. So anything that happened before that seemed to not be of interest to them. That was in Scotland though.
I did have to fill in lots of forms though re her house value and pensions etc. However if the OP had to do this he would just say owned 50% of property and used these funds to buy flat. So does not sound like there would be any issue as mum did not gift any money at all.