What does lack of LPA look like in worst case scenario?

Definitely a good idea. Without one it’s just an uphill slog during which you have to pay out ( or not) in the hope that this get resolved later. Even if you can access funds later it can be difficult to be proactive day to day. I’ve seen cases of funds being finally agreed to be released for care home but no funds for extras ( clothes etc) because that needed a new request. So difficult but elderly parents do think it won’t happen / that it’s not needed / that it won’t happen to them. I wonder if the charities have advice - sometimes they can say it in a way that gets through ..

Absolutely essential for managing someone's affairs, even if they can manage day to day. Phone and broadband packages are on a 30 day rolling contract and if the dd is cancelled unexpectedly, a collections letter is issued. Its frightening for anyone, let alone anyone in their later years. The companies need LPOA before they can speak to anyone else.

Also, elderly people are vulnerable and have been known to agree to new contracts that are unsuitable for their needs. Sorting that type of mess out without LPOA is very tricky.

I had an elderly relative who wanted a new mobile so the toddled off to the shop and was sold a business package. He'd told them he needed it for his essential business, bless him. Luckily, it was sorted due to LPOA once we'd found out after two years. If it hadn't have been in place it would probably have turned into some sort of Bleak House affair.

I think both the financial and the health and welfare ones are necessary. When FIL was in hospital after having a stroke DH being NOK seemed to count for nothing. DFIL would do neither. We have done the financial one for our son with a solicitor and I am going to do the health one myself on line and just get it checked over.

We've been really pleased to have the lpa for finance and its meant we can arrange care earlier then the LA would deem in necessary or at least more quickly than waiting for an assessment. We don't have health and welfare but to be honest we've been fully involved and consulted as nearest relatives and his wishes and feelings have been fully recorded on his health notes.

A respect form is what every elderly person needs with their own wishes and ceiling of care . POA is only relevant if MC is a problem.Quite complicated TBH

We’ve been in that position and social services (whilst stressing that the final decision was theirs) did consult the family extensively about mum’s care needs. All the care homes suggested were local. Not many beds available but enough to give us a choice.

We did ask about a few in the neighbouring county and were dissuaded as it would have complicated funding with the different county councils.

We were encouraged to view the suggested care homes. We rejected one which had a poor rating and this was accepted without argument. It was made clear to us which ones social services would and wouldn’t pay for.

Mum’s house has to be sold, but without LPA we can’t do it so we’ve applied for Deputyship. Social Services helped us with this. It can take a long time and whilst it’s in progress, SS are paying the care home fees which we will have to reimburse once mum’s house is sold.

LPA would have speeded this up, but not having it has not been a disaster.

The social workers we’ve dealt with have been very kind and very helpful.

@LoveRules "I thought id share this here and also I'd be interested to hear of any real life experiences of grim scenarios so I can keep badgering my mum or get my brother her favourite to do.

The wills woman explained the courts step in like when a child is taken into care and the parents then have few rights in what happens next."

It's worse than when courts step in re child care, because with vulnerable elderly people it seems to be entirely in the hands of councils (which are incompetent and answerable to no-one).

Get your brother her favourite to convince her...[edit] or why not your dad?

First off, there are two different POAs. 1) Health etc and 2) financial.

I do know a horror story about it. A friend, one of two estranged brothers, and their father v. elderly with dementia/bedridden at home for years. I think my friend's brother had financial POA but not health. (My friend had neither). The council seemed to be entirely and completely in charge of health decisions, - for example, they refused to allow my friend to visit his own father and took sides with the brother with financial POA.

I really don't know the details but I know the council had a lot of control over what happened and it wasn't good.

That is strange because it's the opposite of what I've found with my parents in Surrey, but the thing is, without LPA you have no say. If you have an NHS Trust who wants to keep you alive despite all pain, they will do it, if you have one where they bump you off to save money, they'll do that too.

Google 'St Helier' and 'euthanasia' for a story on that in the local press from last year.

I think

Years ago - 10 years ago in fact - and it was 10 years ago this week - my mother's care home put her in hospital. She nearly died. The CQC had failed the care home on all counts - but didn't tell families. They DID inform Surrey's Social Services, who kept it secret. Later one of them said they didn't have responsibility for self-funding residents anyway.

So annoyed was I that the CQC continued to give this care home a 'Good' rating throughout the rest of the year, when I found out they'd failed it many months earlier I took it to the local press.

Surrey's Social Services never responded but they got to work. They got my other's subsequent care home to get a file out on me and carry out surveillance. They then hit us with a list of allegations, timed for Christmas, as the Council is wont to do. The ace in their pack is that we did not have LPA in Health & Welfare, and as my mother had been deemed to not have mental capacity, THEY were in control of her care, and could have us barred from seeing her. It is possible they realised we'd suspected the next care home - one in Reigate - of having her killed via dehydration, so called 'end-of-life' care. They tried to get to me using my mother as bait.

We outwitted them a bit, but the old saw about how your kids chose your parent's care home isn't true. They get to decide if you are on their radar and could exact retribution.

Another example is my Dad in hospital the week before the Coronation last year. It stank, his stats were fine, he'd recovered and we wanted him home. They tried every trick to stop it and only our producing a hard copy of the LPA in Health and Welfare allowed it. They pored over it for loopholes but found none. They were bloody toxic.

All this take place in Surrey and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it.

Here are two letters I've had in the press about it, one is the Mail, the other is the Metro from last year.

I would say that if she wants to be treated until the last gasp, to be carted into hospital and filled up with IV fluids and antibiotics amd surgery at every twitch, she'll be fine without PoA. If she doesn't want any of that, she needs to write it down.

It isn't all bad not having it but it would have made things potentially a lot easier to actually carry out her wishes.

We have the financial POA and that is a GODSEND. It would have been simply horrific trying to live the last two years without it. When we finally started using it, years after it was signed, I talked about it in terms of my mum making the decisions and me doing the legwork. Which was true - she would ring me in a panic that she'd run out of money and I could look online and explain what was happening and that she was OK. Then when she had a stroke it meant I could buy her things she needed but was no longer physically or mentally able to decide on. And I could battle engage with social services and have some official status to advocate for her.

We never got the health one and it is awful. Mum is long past making her own decisions and it means a succession of doctors who have never met her before make the decisions. I think either Mum didn't trust us, or thought we could somehow 'fix everything' with no legal authority. Tbh I think she had very little idea just how frail and incapable you can be and still be kept alive.

I feel for you, unexpected events can happen, ask her does she wish to have limited choice, over her choices?
By that I mean, well what she would chose, if say sudden stroke or such event, would occur?
Ask her these questions………..she must be aware she is in her late winter years.
How much influence does her favoured son ,have and what are his views?
Maybe I see things differently with mid stage Parkinson’s.

It is an absolute nightmare. As we have learned to our cost.

Also I hope you are rich enough to cover all expenses until the court of protection sorts it out which can take many, many months.

It cost 10s of 1000s of pounds ( in our case care home costs) that took almost a year to get back.

If you needed to access her funds to pay for her care and manage her finances after she has lost capacity, you would have to make an application to the court of protection to be appointed as her ‘deputy’. This is a very long winded and expensive process compared to completing the LPA forms whilst she still has capacity. She has a say if she puts it in place whilst she has capacity. If she waits and loses capacity it will be decided for her and be more difficult and expensive.

My father won't entertain the idea either because he's 'not old' (he is). I've dropped the subject and he may raise it in the future if he 'comes up with a good idea'.....

It is absolutely vital tbh. It's a real problem when people don't have one in place but have family. However, your DM is a grown woman with full capacity- I mean this kindly - and the choice remains hers, no matter how much you think it needs to be done. All you can do is educate her on the importance, but it sounds like you've already done that. You can't make her do one under duress.
I'm sorry OP. Tbh it is properly shit when things like this happen