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Elderly parents

Dementia dad and driving

70 replies

PopcornPoppingInAPan · 06/02/2024 09:03

Sorry for long post :-(

My 80 year old father has not been fit enough to drive for some time, in 2022 I reported him to DVLA and his licence was eventually revoked.

Since then he has been diagnosed with vascular dementia caused by two small strokes, not expected to get worse but he is still physically and cognitively unsafe to drive.

My father is unfortunately convinced he is safe to drive, that his licence was revoked due to an “administrative error” (I told him I’d reported him to the DVLA but he seems to have forgotten).

He keeps trying to raise it with medical professionals, wants to write to his MP about how outrageous it is. He’s obsessed with it.

While medical professionals v unlikely to support his application to get licence back their approach is always to kick the can down the road eg, “We’re waiting for further test results and need those before I can consider” or (new GP) “I will have to discuss your medical history with your usual GP.”

I understand this is probably the recommended method, because you often can’t rationalise with people with dementia and it’s better to try to distract them.

The issue is this: we have concerns that my Dad is going to get so fed up he just decides to drive anyway. He had already said “If they catch me it’s only a £1000 fine” and seems to think it’s a risk worth taking. He knows he would not be insured and that it would be illegal but doesn’t seem to care.

I’m getting slightly desperate as to what we can do. Hiding the keys may work once or twice but isn’t a permanent solution. If he does drive then yes, we can call the police, but clearly we really need to stop it getting to that point!

Does anyone have any advice please?

I’m wondering if we push the GP to tell him no, he cannot drive, and to put this in writing. That might make it harder for my dad to maintain his licence was revoked only because of an administrative error. But maybe it won’t.

The only advice I can find is again, try to distract the person but it’s just not sustainable to keep doing this, we need a more permanent approach.

I also wondered about trying to get the GP or adult social services to declare him as lacking in capacity to decide whether he can drive, but what good would that do unless we went down the full deprivation of liberty route and put him in a secure care home. (He is doing stints of respite care in a care home but I don’t think it’s a secure one).

Help, please!

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 06/02/2024 14:03

What worked for my mother was that my husband needed to borrow it. Not me...she never would have agreed. But she thought that, as a man, my husband would enjoy the 4x4 that my father had chosen.

Is there a "cause" that your dad would agree with. My mum might also have given the car to the local priest, had he asked.

Generally though a combination of not managing the tax/Mot paperwork needed to insure the vehicle, as well as the fact that the battery was flat prevented her from driving. Add in missing keys and a wheel lock and perhaps a note inside the car for the garage, and you should be OK. Actually, why not take out the battery and leave a note for the garage inside the bonnet?

AnnaMagnani · 06/02/2024 13:56

Does your DF have capacity to decide where he lives?

My FIL with dementia went into a care home for respite. At the end of the 2 weeks, MIL who had been very anxious and guilty about sending him in, didn't take him home.

It was the right decision but not one FIL would ever have understood as his dementia didn't let him see there were any problems.

HowDoTheyGetThroughLife · 06/02/2024 13:54

Sell the car, for goodness sake. Never mind that your dad will get angry. He's a danger to himself and others.

Tara336 · 06/02/2024 13:54

I was in this exact situation last year, in the end we removed the keys from the house completely as DF lacks capacity and insisted he was safe to drive and was going to get his licence back. Its a horrible situation to be in, no amount of explaining woukd convince him he was unsafe. He's in a care home now and still obsessed with getting his licence back

PermanentTemporary · 06/02/2024 13:52

I think the garage taking the car is a brilliant opportunity.

Can you go and talk to them? No doubt they can't immobilise it themselves but you could inform them that you are going to immobilise it. Ask them to try to move it, then when they can't, to tow it to the garage for repairs. And keep it for several weeks??

I agree also about giving the car to someone else with his agreement. My FIL eventually gave MILs car to my BIL because 'his had broken down and he needed one for work'. It took her a few months to stop bewailing its loss but eventually she did.

Bargello · 06/02/2024 13:50

Anger and temper are really common in dementia patients, it's part of the condition. It is really really hard to deal with when you're the one on the end of the outbursts but having dementia is very unsettling and scary and it's all just too much for them to cope with.

CuteCillian · 06/02/2024 13:49

We disconnected the battery so the car wouldn't start. Luckily a family friend was a garage mechanic & came out each time my mother couldn't start the car which he was 'unable' to do.
The car then went into the garage & we got regular updates on how it was...

This is exactly what I did. MIL still tells me earnestly that she has decided she will be fine to drive when the car is 'fixed', but she is surprised how well she has managed without it. It has been gone for 18 months.

orangegato · 06/02/2024 13:46

Surely the car battery is flat as a frigging pancake if he hasn’t driven it for years?

He won’t get far, the car won’t switch on.

PopcornPoppingInAPan · 06/02/2024 13:42

rwalker · 06/02/2024 13:41

I’d be cautious about a steering lock that would of set my dad off like a rocket
and your mum will get the brunt of it

Yes this is a concern and my dad has real temper issues unfortunately.

OP posts:
PopcornPoppingInAPan · 06/02/2024 13:41

greenbeansnspinach · 06/02/2024 12:50

Can’t you ring the garage (or go in) and tell them that his licence has been revoked? They can take the car away and then you can sell it.
He will have something from DVLA in writing telling him he can’t drive, so it’s not really anything to do with medical professionals any more. The decision has been made, and like lots of obstinate old men (and women) he just won’t accept it. Unfortunately he has to. Don’t enter into any discussions with him, you will be wasting your breath.

In theory it is possible to get a revoked licence back if you can get an appropriate doctor to support the application. Which we think is unlikely but wonder whether a doctor spelling this out to my father would help.

OP posts:
rwalker · 06/02/2024 13:41

I’d be cautious about a steering lock that would of set my dad off like a rocket
and your mum will get the brunt of it

PopcornPoppingInAPan · 06/02/2024 13:38

Thanks for the further replies.

He did have a driving assessment after we raised concerns (and before the DVLA revoked his licence) and passed it, albeit by the skin of his teeth. But I agree doing another one unlikely to be an option or helpful now.

Re wider concerns re mum having enough support, thank you for raising but we have been through everything we think - adult social services, trying to get home carers (virtually impossible as they won’t travel to parents village, and don’t help with the sort of stuff we need given my dad can get himself up, showered and dressed etc), carer support for my mum etc. The stints of respite care have been the best thing, ideally my dad would be in a care home most/all of the time but he won’t agree needless to say.

A steering lock and a plan to try to sell the car may be good options but I just don’t know if dad would accept the sale.

My mum is going to visit the garage tomorrow to explain the whole situation and see if they can delay things (though they don’t have much storage to keep the car for long) and/or remove the spark plugs…

OP posts:
greenbeansnspinach · 06/02/2024 12:50

PopcornPoppingInAPan · 06/02/2024 09:43

Thanks @willingtolearn yes it’s my mum who cares for him and it’s challenging for her in all sorts of other respects which could be the subject of another very lengthy thread!

I just feel a GP letter would be something else in her amoury when he keeps trying to bring it up. But yes it’s likely he doesn’t retain the information albeit we don’t really know since no Dr will actually tell him he’s not medically fit to drive!

His car is currently in the garage at home but yesterday he called the garage/mechanics and had arranged to get them to collect it on Friday to ensure it’s roadworthy, so sure is he that he will get his licence back!

Can’t you ring the garage (or go in) and tell them that his licence has been revoked? They can take the car away and then you can sell it.
He will have something from DVLA in writing telling him he can’t drive, so it’s not really anything to do with medical professionals any more. The decision has been made, and like lots of obstinate old men (and women) he just won’t accept it. Unfortunately he has to. Don’t enter into any discussions with him, you will be wasting your breath.

Bargello · 06/02/2024 11:25

He can't have his driving assessed by anyone as he's not allowed out on the roads. Seeing conspiracies, refusing to accept reality and a good dose of paranoia about people doing things they shouldn't (like taking your driving licence or other things you own) are fairly common with dementia, in my experience.

Mamaraisedadoughut · 06/02/2024 11:18

MenopauseSucks · 06/02/2024 10:30

If his licence has been revoked, he should have received a letter from the DVLA telling him he can't drive.

If he insists he's ok, get him to do a driver assessment - look online for 'older drivers assessment' and you can find all sorts of info.
He might accept an examiner's views as they are assessing him face-to-face rather than a 'faceless paper-pushing bureaucrat'.
(Been there, got the T-shirt...)

Disconnect the battery so the car won't start & talk to the garage. Show them the letter from the DVLA & ask they don't do anything to try & fix the car if he calls them out.
Make sure his insurance & any sort of car recovery he had are informed so they won't come out.
If he does manage to get someone out to fix the car you could try putting a photocopy of the DVLA letter on the driving seat so they will see just what they're getting into.
A steering lock can work as well.

Set up a keysafe & put your mother's car keys in that.

We disconnected the battery so the car wouldn't start. Luckily a family friend was a garage mechanic & came out each time my mother couldn't start the car which he was 'unable' to do.
The car then went into the garage & we got regular updates on how it was...
She eventually forgot about it but it took a while.

The steering wheel lock is genius. Another thing to "lose" the key to.

MenopauseSucks · 06/02/2024 10:30

If his licence has been revoked, he should have received a letter from the DVLA telling him he can't drive.

If he insists he's ok, get him to do a driver assessment - look online for 'older drivers assessment' and you can find all sorts of info.
He might accept an examiner's views as they are assessing him face-to-face rather than a 'faceless paper-pushing bureaucrat'.
(Been there, got the T-shirt...)

Disconnect the battery so the car won't start & talk to the garage. Show them the letter from the DVLA & ask they don't do anything to try & fix the car if he calls them out.
Make sure his insurance & any sort of car recovery he had are informed so they won't come out.
If he does manage to get someone out to fix the car you could try putting a photocopy of the DVLA letter on the driving seat so they will see just what they're getting into.
A steering lock can work as well.

Set up a keysafe & put your mother's car keys in that.

We disconnected the battery so the car wouldn't start. Luckily a family friend was a garage mechanic & came out each time my mother couldn't start the car which he was 'unable' to do.
The car then went into the garage & we got regular updates on how it was...
She eventually forgot about it but it took a while.

MereDintofPandiculation · 06/02/2024 10:18

perhaps the £1,000 fine was just for driving without insurance. The £1000 fine is the max specified for not having a license, but if also without insurance it can be unlimited. I'm struggling to understand how you can have valid insurance if you no longer have a license. Maybe the thing I quoted was AI generated? But it might convince your dad that he's not risking "just a £1000 fine".

Megifer · 06/02/2024 09:58

As a pp said depending on where he is stage-wise, and what his history is like re: 'authority' a letter from the gp will do absolutely nothing at all. He'll claim its fake, a mistake, its not for him, he'll deny ever seeing it, will find it and put it in the bin......infact I'm confident I'm saying it doesn't matter where he is stage wise. He simply will not take it in.

A gp, PCOS etc cannot sort this issue out.

Ring the garage, tell them the situation sensitively, maybe ask if they can drag their feet a bit while you and mum come to terms with the fact that it's unfortunately you both that need to come up with a plan

crackedvass · 06/02/2024 09:56

Could you arrange a track day, so kind of fun linked to cars to get this out of his system. Tell him one last blast with a driver and that's it, no more car.

I know it sounds utterly bonkers but it would be something I'd do and who knows.

Bargello · 06/02/2024 09:53

It's funny what people with dementia hook onto as an obsession. My dad was just the same. We sold his car as he wasn't allowed to drive it, mum was OK to drive so she chauffeured him around. Even after his dementia had progressed, he was still asking several times a day where the car was, when they were going out in the car, where the keys were. Keys in general to be fair, even though he had no intention of going out.

Your poor mum. A letter from the GP might help, or another from the DVLA?

willingtolearn · 06/02/2024 09:50

It is a really tough situation.

Will your mum accept help caring for him? Will he? I think you said that you were using some respite services.

It is really common for one partner to become worn out or unwell because of struggling to manage high care needs, but still wanting to provide that care.

Are you able to have a conversation with your mum about getting her some help?

You may have already done this but this is the link for a care needs assessment: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/help-from-social-services-and-charities/getting-a-needs-assessment/

It's not just your Dad's needs - it's also your Mum's needs as a carer that need to be considered.

Otherwise it tends to reach crisis point before decisions are forced because someone has got hurt/unwell.

nhs.uk

Getting a care needs assessment - Social care and support guide

How to get assessed by your local council to see what type of care you need.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/help-from-social-services-and-charities/getting-a-needs-assessment

Purplecatshopaholic · 06/02/2024 09:47

We took her keys off her and when that stopped working we eventually sold the car. She was a total danger to herself and others and I am not sorry. I would have been if she had killed herself or someone else.

warmmfeet · 06/02/2024 09:43

That sounds really difficult.

Your Dad lacks the capacity to understand the danger involved in him driving. Therefore you are only acting in his best interests by removing the keys, phoning the garage etc to keep him safe.

We actually have a similar situation with my FiL who had his license revoked due to a brain tumour which affected his sight. He has since been diagnosed with vascular dementia. For many years he would say he wants to get his license back and some humoured him but his wife just constantly reminded him it wasn't possible. He's given up / forgotten now.

PopcornPoppingInAPan · 06/02/2024 09:43

Thanks @willingtolearn yes it’s my mum who cares for him and it’s challenging for her in all sorts of other respects which could be the subject of another very lengthy thread!

I just feel a GP letter would be something else in her amoury when he keeps trying to bring it up. But yes it’s likely he doesn’t retain the information albeit we don’t really know since no Dr will actually tell him he’s not medically fit to drive!

His car is currently in the garage at home but yesterday he called the garage/mechanics and had arranged to get them to collect it on Friday to ensure it’s roadworthy, so sure is he that he will get his licence back!

OP posts:
willingtolearn · 06/02/2024 09:42

This is not for the GPs to deal with - it would be a waste of their time.

This is for the people caring for him to deal with.

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