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Elderly parents
Original poster

Care home sent her back

139 replies

WickerShit · 27/01/2024 08:04

Mum (78) has Alzheimer's, diagnosed 2018, being cared for at home by my 85 year old step-father. Things have been really awful for a long time.

She is very very bad now crying and distressed a lot of the time, hallucinating, not washing or changing her clothes.

We have been pushing and pushing for them to get help (carers etc) and SF wouldn't have it said Mum would not accept any help from anyone but family. There's a lot more to the history of the last few years as you can imagine.

This month things came to a head with paramedics being called/hospital visits finally people seemed to start to sit up and listen and after a very bumpy ride very emotional and stressful she was found a place in a home which we moved her into. She went in Thurs lunchtime. By 7 pm they had called us and said they couldn't cope and we'd have to take her home. She was verbally and physically aggressive and throwing drinks / food at the walls.

Back home she is now calmer than that but back to crying and moaning and wandering round unable to settle. And still in the same clothes, hadn't washed for weeks,

When they called SF yesterday afternoon and asked how things are he said 'fine' . Someone called us yesterday and said if he continues to say 'fine' the authorities will move on and no more help will be offered.

Me and my step-sister have PoA. Just wondering what the next step is. So sad as I really thought on Thursday we'd finally moved on to the next albeit upsetting phase but no back to the nightmare again.

OP posts:
Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:46

WinterExclusive · 27/01/2024 10:43

@WickerShit I must reassure you on our experience on a secure ward for someone with dementia. My parent was sectioned and taken for assessment and then observation and then treatment. My parent had their own room and toilet, and were able to lock their door when they wanted to. My parent stayed for nearly a full year and in that time, they improved considerably - they now live in a care home under a DOLs (deprivation of liberty safeguard) and they are happier and more social, balanced than they have been for years. They are still explosive occasionally, but the home are looking into mood stabilisers rather than knocking them out with high strength medicine. I am very clear indeed that this was the best thing that could have happened for them (and they didn't want to leave the hospital in the end). If you're anywhere near South London, I'm happy to share more by pm.

You need to get in touch with adult social care, possibly a memory team, and explain everything that you have said here

At the end of the day, with a health and welfare poa you are able to advocate for the best treatment for your mother. She deserves better than this.

Thank you so much this is very reassuring and I fully hope this will cast we will send up with.

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Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:45

Puddingpieplum · 27/01/2024 10:42

@WickerShit it sounds like she can't be managed in a residential bed so will need nursing. You need a FNC assessment. This is key to everything, it's not in her interest to have another failed placement. Has the SW not identified nursing needs?

Previously she has not been assessed for nursing needs as up till now she has not demonstrated such violent behaviours. Her social care assessment came back as complex needs which I assume is not the same thing. This FNC (?) assessment is something which needs to happen asap. We are in full crisis mode at the moment and trying to make sense of everything

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WinterExclusive · 27/01/2024 10:43

@WickerShit I must reassure you on our experience on a secure ward for someone with dementia. My parent was sectioned and taken for assessment and then observation and then treatment. My parent had their own room and toilet, and were able to lock their door when they wanted to. My parent stayed for nearly a full year and in that time, they improved considerably - they now live in a care home under a DOLs (deprivation of liberty safeguard) and they are happier and more social, balanced than they have been for years. They are still explosive occasionally, but the home are looking into mood stabilisers rather than knocking them out with high strength medicine. I am very clear indeed that this was the best thing that could have happened for them (and they didn't want to leave the hospital in the end). If you're anywhere near South London, I'm happy to share more by pm.

You need to get in touch with adult social care, possibly a memory team, and explain everything that you have said here

At the end of the day, with a health and welfare poa you are able to advocate for the best treatment for your mother. She deserves better than this.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:43

@MereDintofPandiculation

Thank you. To clarify previous to this placement they had suggested somewhere else. My SS visited it and says it was horrible, dark, smelt of urine, several flights up - generally didn't feel great. In SS words 'I'm not sending her there'. So we refused that one. So I think from our perspective we were scared that if we left it with them she'd be put in somewhere horrendous.

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Puddingpieplum · 27/01/2024 10:42

@WickerShit it sounds like she can't be managed in a residential bed so will need nursing. You need a FNC assessment. This is key to everything, it's not in her interest to have another failed placement. Has the SW not identified nursing needs?

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:40

AnnaMagnani · 27/01/2024 10:36

An assisted living residence is not a dementia care home.

Even within dementia care homes, skills differ so what one home may think is horrendous, another deals with barely thinking about it.

And I've been to older people's mental health units where people are sectioned - no restraints, purpose built for the needs of people with dementia and actually not that different to a care home.

You need to think about the person's needs, rather than what looks attractive to you. When FIL had dementia he was happy as long as he could walk round in a circle and look at the cars in the car park. Anything else such as gardens and nice lounges was wasted on him.

Thanks. This response has really hit home with us. What we have been looking for is something that makes us happy, less guilty about leaving her.

It's much harder to think about what will make her happy. Because currently nothing does. Nothing at all.

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MereDintofPandiculation · 27/01/2024 10:39

WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:33

@MereDintofPandiculation Hi - as I said further up they said they were going to send her to A and E . Not sure what would have happened then. They definitely were not keeping her that was made clear.

Yes, sorry, I didn’t see your update before I posted.

A&E would have found somewhere suitable.

As long as you’re doing the negotiation, they know they can pressurise you to taking on something they wouldn’t ask of anyone else.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:37

@Puddingpieplum Is she eligible for FNC / CHC?

Currently the only funding we have is for a local-authority 6 week assessment which is what was supposed to be happening at this home. Now we need to apply for the highest level of funding I guess - I will speak to the team about how to do this asap

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EmmaGrundyForPM · 27/01/2024 10:36

Howmanysleepsnow · 27/01/2024 09:30

There absolutely won’t not be locked rooms or restraints!
There will be lounges, communal spaces, outdoor space (large gardens in some), activities, bbqs in summer, parties on occasion, animal visits, games, trips out, art , music, reminiscence, sensory stimulation, experienced staff, higher staff ratios than in residential homes… Go and look around a few, you will be surprised.

This! Go and visit some and find one that's right for your mum.

If SS. are paying, then she can only access a nursing home if there's a nursing assessment saying that is what she needs. Speak to her social worker

AnnaMagnani · 27/01/2024 10:36

An assisted living residence is not a dementia care home.

Even within dementia care homes, skills differ so what one home may think is horrendous, another deals with barely thinking about it.

And I've been to older people's mental health units where people are sectioned - no restraints, purpose built for the needs of people with dementia and actually not that different to a care home.

You need to think about the person's needs, rather than what looks attractive to you. When FIL had dementia he was happy as long as he could walk round in a circle and look at the cars in the car park. Anything else such as gardens and nice lounges was wasted on him.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:33

@MereDintofPandiculation Hi - as I said further up they said they were going to send her to A and E . Not sure what would have happened then. They definitely were not keeping her that was made clear.

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Puddingpieplum · 27/01/2024 10:33

WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:26

The place she went was an 'assisted living residence'. As I said they did see all her notes / assessments.

She needs a nursing home, with qualified nurses on shift 24/7. They will easily manage her behaviour and needs. Assisted living is for people with lower needs. You should invoke the LPoA and ask kindly that dads opinion is disregarded if he isn't being honest.
Is she eligible for FNC / CHC?

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:31

ConflictofInterest · 27/01/2024 10:25

I've also worked as a carer in an EMI dementia care nursing home and the set-up looks the same, nice lounges, activities and events, gardens, personalized bedrooms, etc they cope by having a much higher ratio of staff and better training and pay. Everyone was highly trained in dementia care and de-escalation techniques. The building was designed to be dementia friendly. No one was ever sedated or physically restrained.

Hi and thank you so much for your response (and thank you everyone else) much appreciated.

So if in the home you described a resident arrived and displayed the level of aggressive behaviour I describe the home would be able to cope and would keep her until she settled? She is not frail, quite strong and very angry when separated from SD.

I need to know what kind of place I am looking for when I go back to the team. I'm scared they will say nowhere will cope with her.

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MereDintofPandiculation · 27/01/2024 10:30

WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:02

Sorry I am here just just on phone etc in reading through responses now to those who say we should have left her to settle we had no choice but to- they wouldn't keep her.

I think what people are saying is you should have stood firm and said “we cannot cope and will not accept her back”, then you’re leaving the problem of finding somewhere suitable to them.

Sometimes “behaving nicely” doesn’t cut it when trying to get support for your loved ones.

…. Just seen your edit. So they’d have taken her to A&E, who would have had the problem. It would have been messy, but as relatives you have the disadvantage that you can be pressured into doing things that no work situation would do.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:26

The place she went was an 'assisted living residence'. As I said they did see all her notes / assessments.

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ConflictofInterest · 27/01/2024 10:25

I've also worked as a carer in an EMI dementia care nursing home and the set-up looks the same, nice lounges, activities and events, gardens, personalized bedrooms, etc they cope by having a much higher ratio of staff and better training and pay. Everyone was highly trained in dementia care and de-escalation techniques. The building was designed to be dementia friendly. No one was ever sedated or physically restrained.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:25

We have the community crisis response team involved - we have two caseworkers currently looking for the right placement - we have an assigned Admiral Nurse also working with us. They are calling me and my step-sister and we are emphasising she needs to go somewhere. They are also calling my SD who is obviously a bit traumatised from the whole thing and as she is settled back at home when anyone calls him he says they are 'fine'

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doyouwanticewiththat · 27/01/2024 10:25

I have nothing to add in the way of advice as don't have experience of this but I'm sorry you're in this situation and hope it resolved soon . I can't imagine the stress you are under Flowers

Puddingpieplum · 27/01/2024 10:23

Did she go to a care home or a nursing home? What's her funding stream?

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:22

HappyHamsters · 27/01/2024 10:13

She needs to have a capacity assessment, if you have poa and she lacks capacity she can be assessed for the right level of care. Who collected her, it's unusual for a home to refuse a resident if they have assessed her first and agreed to take her. What sort of home was it, who arranged it. Dementia homes and long term pscyh units are not asylum locked rooms with restraints, you need to get that idea out of your heads so she is given the right help.

She's had a capacity assessments (at home) and came out as complex needs. This home has seen that assessment and agreed to take her but when she went postal they said they didn't have the capacity.

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Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:20

@DiamondGazette “I work in dementia care and I can assure you it’s far from 'asylum locked rooms sedation and restraints' 😣You need to get a social worker allocated to your mother and look for an EMI nursing placement.”

Great - could you please tell me in an EMI nursing placement how they would deal with the behaviour I described? So I know what I am expecting them to do - thank you ☺️

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DiamondGazette · 27/01/2024 10:17

WickerShit · 27/01/2024 08:12

She's had multiple assessments. Nothing since her discharge on Thursday. Yes it was a dementia home but they are saying they are not the right level for her needs. I might be getting the terminology wrong here but she needs a dementia nursing home or possibly admittance to a secure mental health unit. The thing is I know neither of those places will be all 'sunny lounge areas and wandering round the garden' and more 'asylum locked rooms sedation and restraints' which feels like a much huger leap than the one we were making to the care home environment. And tbh not one I think my SF will willingly agree to.

I work in dementia care and I can assure you it’s far from 'asylum locked rooms sedation and restraints' 😣You need to get a social worker allocated to your mother and look for an EMI nursing placement.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:14

By the way I know lots dementia homes are very nice and have what you all describe - gardens games etc. my gran was in one and I visited her there. We have visited a few. The one we sent her to was like that. But these ones will not take her as they can't meet her needs. I'm not sure how another home will be able to meet her needs if she kicks off like that when she arrives? Does anyone know how a home should/would cope with the behaviour I have described? Other than sedation?

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HappyHamsters · 27/01/2024 10:13

She needs to have a capacity assessment, if you have poa and she lacks capacity she can be assessed for the right level of care. Who collected her, it's unusual for a home to refuse a resident if they have assessed her first and agreed to take her. What sort of home was it, who arranged it. Dementia homes and long term pscyh units are not asylum locked rooms with restraints, you need to get that idea out of your heads so she is given the right help.

Original poster
WickerShit · 27/01/2024 10:11

It was a dementia care home - she was accepted on the basis of her assessments however all of these have been done at home and with SD present. As soon as she is away from home she is much worse. And I think the violence of her response at being left there and no SD took everyone by surprise. She is physically still pretty strong and apparently she was shouting and swearing, going into other people's rooms, pushing people (other residents / staff) out if the way, threw full cup of coffee at a nurse, threw her dinner at the wall, held someone by the wrists shouting in their face.

Apparently they 'tried to get hold of a 1-1' mental health worker but couldn't get hold of anyone. Or a doctor. They were worried about the safety of the staff and other residents. I wasn't there but my step sister was not given the option to leave her there they insisted they took her home. I have asked what would have happened if we had refused or if we didn't exist and have been told they would have called police /ambulance and had her taken to A and E. not sure how A and E would have coped with her? Anyway staying there was not an option.

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