What do you wish you'd talked about earlier?

Well, I think you'll find they do, @EmotionalBlackmail I take it you've heard of what went on at the Gosport War Memorial Hospital some years ago. It's a matter of public record that opiates were prescribed, but to date nobody has ever got into trouble over this, despite numerous police 'investigations' by different forces, each one taking its time. I see all that as a dress rehearsal for what went on during lockdown.

There's a reason why my sister and I had to take it in turns to visit Mum in various Surrey care homes to give her drink, while all our appeals to the manager fell on deaf ears. It took us way too long to figure it out, though when you do it makes no difference. It seems to be authorised at the highest level.

I'm not talking about folk approaching their final days. I'm talking about the State pushing them towards their final days. To save money on pensions and prescriptions, and to get a nice inheritance tax boost.

St Helier Hospital local to me has been accused of euthanasia in this report which sadly never made it into the print version of the local paper. When we got Dad into Epsom General Hospital in late April this year we ran up against some very odd, nasty behaviour at the Acute Medical Unit (AMU) and we had to produce a hard copy of the LPA in Health and Welfare to get him out. The person in charge there pored over it for a loophole, had us surrounded by all her work colleagues on the ward suddenly, one of them whipping out a smart phone to film what looked like an engineered confrontation - we didn't rise to it but just got him out. I don't think they was motivated by tender care for Dad.

Sadly, in October this year when Dad was significantly more poorly we had to get him to the same hospital but understandably chose the Mary Seacole ward instead. I think we got 'played' with tea and sympathy - we just let our guard down and were mentally and physically fatigued. Dad went on the ward Monday, was dead by late Wednesday night. It leaves a bitter taste - we would rather have got him home, well we couldn't have done a worse job than them as it turned out.

That said, I will concede that other posts on the 'Elderly Parents' thread are at variance with this - to the point where with a couple of them I even contacted Mumsnet HQ to question if they were valid, especially as one member didn't seem to have posted anything else. Musmnet confirmed they was valid; they'd posted under another name usually - I think the policy varies re local NHS Trusts, also if the patient retains any mental capacity, that makes the difference in some instances. If not, if they seem to have a whiff of significant dementia, then they can do as they please, especially if the family didn't know to get LPA in Health and Welfare, well, it's not down to them frankly.

The policy does seem wholly contradictory, almost as if the State is saying, whatever the family wants, we'll do the opposite.

.

But TBH after Shipman I'd be more worried about not enough pain relief being available than too much! As is being demonstrated, sadly, by another current thread

There are inaccuracies above. Hospitals and care homes don't 'bump off' elderly people with opiates or dehydration. Yes, hospitals in particular can be rubbish at communication.

As people approach their final days their appetite naturally diminishes as their organs begin to shut down and their body stops being able to process food and fluid. So sticking them on an IV would be cruel and pointless. Good mouth care is crucial (little sponge things to moisten the lips and mouth) at this stage.

Opiates are often prescribed so they aren't in pain, possibly using a syringe driver the person can control themselves. But TBH after Shipman I'd be more worried about not enough pain relief being available than too much!

This is a brilliant idea @FusionChefGeoff Really useful to see and I will apply it to my own aging. Unfortunately getting push back from elderly parents on what assistance they need.

I think the doctor surgery has something called a Respect form for the elderly which also helps bolster what they want done towards the end of their life, as in the last year or so.

It does appear that hospitals can bump off patients if they are elderly and it can be guess-timated that they have less than three months to live anyway. I think this is legal under NICE guidelines and in many ways is worse than the now illegal Liverpool Care Pathway. This will be done via opiates, or more likely via dehydration in specially selected care homes that are on side. They don't seem to picky about going about this, I've found. I mean, if they die, they die, you can't row it back can you or prove it wouldn't have happened.

Therefore, if you have a parent in a poor state in hospital you may wish to consider if you want them to die at home instead because you can hang on in there in hospital and in some cases - esp if there is a big whiff of dementia - I get the impression they simply won't be allowed to leave that hospital alive. I wish I had known that - in a way, I did, but we got bought off with tea and sympathy the second time round, I feel.

I set this up for myself in Covid so a little shy of 50. My mum died without a will at 39 and my DSis at 38. It's never too early.

I have a file with all the deeds etc in. I use a company called cake that have all the information necessary. I've chosen readings and hymns.

Our house is set up so we are downstairs. Kids up.

And we have a flat that we rent out that will do for the last bit of life if needs be. Close to shops etc. Not necessarily where I'd choose to live but in town.

I’m nearly 60 and DH is 62 and I’m definitely going to initiate this chat with our children. They aren’t the type to ‘hector’ us, we’ve not bought them up to do that, but having sorted out all four parents estates I know it will make their lives easier when the inevitable happens.
We’re about to move and are making sure we have future proofed the location, on bus routes, walking distance from shops etc.
Will be doing POA with spouse and 2 out of 3 children as attorneys (the youngest has ASD and doesn’t want to be named) wills are up to date and funeral wishes have been talked about openly since the children were young teens.

Be prepared that it might be upsetting for your parents to discuss this. Maybe don't ask everything at once.

Start with Power of Attorney. Then wills.

Then everything else. In small batches.

This. Very difficult to get around to, because the implication can be 'You won't be around for much longer so let's do this...' - a bit morbid. In fact anything that is done on that basis tends to get put off. Same goes for filming bits of them on the smart phone - unless you are in the habit of doing this stuff anyway, the meaning behind doing this can be off putting. So find out or make up some other pretext for it. Taking them to a fancy location? You're filming the location, with them in it of course. Not your 'soon to be not here' parent.

My Dad having a charming, pleasant manner and small talk being the thing, it was disconcerting to come to learn that some stuff you'd think he'd never have forgotten, seems he had. So yeah, label the photos. You can film that too on the smart phone.

My parents have a property in trust and it’s becoming a massive headache to unpick with financial implications and causing a lot of stress for everyone. I really wish I’d sat down with my mum to understand this and what her plan was We will set up a Trust when one of us dies. The wills give details, and are accompanied by Letters of Wishes which go into some detail about why and what we’re hoping to achieve. We will of course sit down with DC and explain, but even if we don’t, the Letter of Wishes should do the job.

My mum died in August, and whilst it was predicted, it’s still left us scrambling with dad to figure stuff out and it’s still going on now, with most of the admin down to me as my dad isn’t coping. Stuff I wish we knew / had discussed

• what the last wishes were re funeral and burial
• possible ideas for funeral directors and wake (sounds morose, but you don’t want to be starting this from scratch whilst dealing with fresh grief)
• the details of their wills and understanding specifics in details, esp if you’re named as executor or trustee. My parents have a property in trust and it’s becoming a massive headache to unpick with financial implications and causing a lot of stress for everyone. I really wish I’d sat down with my mum to understand this and what her plan was
• specifics on donations and bequeathing stuff - I know she had a plan for stuff but she didn’t get to document it, and my dad refuses to discuss it atm (also down to me to figure out)
• where their documents are (wills, birth certificates, passports, driving license etc. when people die, UK govt has a useful ‘tell us once’ service but you really need all the originals to submit the paperwork
• same with details on pensions, annuities, life insurance policies etc and taxes;
• If they have overseas assets or property, figure out what happens to it when people die (I.e. France has v specific laws on estates passing onto spouse and family)
• Living costs - when one person dies, does the other have enough to,live on per month on a single pension

My dad passed on Thurs night/ Friday morning and the conversations we had has made everything so much easier.
Both my parents went through family members without a will, no ideas of what constitutes a 'good send off', care homes- the lot.
My advice would be to make sure that more then one person knows and understands their wishes.
Happy to answer any questions but looks like you've had some good advice so far.

It’s not an either/or. Preferences, financial information can be written down and stored together. And both preferences and financial situation can change radically over 20 years.

Passwords are useful for less official things, like letting MN friends know

Not wanting, while still sound of mind and body, to be hectored by my DC does not imply that I intend to leave everything in chaos and that I haven't already started putting things in place. You seem to be accusing me of selfishness and lack of empathy and that's quite unjustified.

I think it’s a great idea.
also jewellery. I have a relative telling me that they want family members to have some of their jewellery. I suggested she writes down what is from where/what is sentimental. I would rather have a cheap no value piece that meant something/was from someone passed down than go for the most expensive item.

@Myneedycat, my Dad used to do all the finances and pay bills too. My Mum had her housekeeping and the money not used she used to put into an old biscuit tin. It was odd because Mum used to choose where they'd go for holidays and what gifts they'd give everyone. Dad just paid for things. When he died we had to set her up DD to pay bills. She had no idea how much things like council tax or electric cost. She did make a will though because we told her it would make it much harder for us after she passed.

Think of the stress and strain for them if you die without them having a clue where to start or what you would have wanted. Grieving is bad enough without all that on top.
Not to mention the expense of solicitors having to do the work for them if they can’t cope.

What a great idea! I have sort of done that but not in as much detail. My own mother won’t discuss these things with me. My father died and left everything to her but she didn’t understand any of it. She got swindled by a FA and I found out years later had not informed various insurance companies that he had died . I spent months sorting out a terrible mess a long time later. I just dread what we’ll have to deal with when she dies . She won’t even tell us whether she wants to be resuscitated.
My father handles all the finances and all the paperwork when he was alive. She was clueless about what to do afterwards and he didn’t talk to me or my siblings about it either.

Interesting. Do you just want to leave your children to navigate this without knowing your preferences ? And without having any understanding of your financial situation?

Several copies of the death certificate are often needed. We’ve asked for a dozen in the past. Banks etc. always want originals.

Thanks for the info about the Age Uk Lifebook... very useful. I would agree about photos, family history too - my mum has lots of photos of people, but we don't know who they are.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/end-of-life-planning/lifebook/

onlyoneoftheregimentinstep - if you became suddenly incapacitated (or worse), would you really want to put your DCs in the position of having to access and rummage through your house to try and work out legal/financial admin and practicalities on your behalf? Better to have the sensitive but practical conversation now, than add to their grief and burden later surely?

I've had POA and I'm also executor for 2 family members. The easiest and most straightforward (at a time of immense stress and grief) has been when DFs wishes had been clearly expressed, legal and financial paperwork in neat order with a summary sheet/checklist/passwords (including info on rehoming his pets!) No rummaging through underwear drawers/kitchen cupboards/bathroom cabinets for post like we had to do for late MIL - her paperwork was an absolute nightmare and took ages and a great deal of money on solicitors to sort out the mess. We also couldn't find her address book so contact details for some of her wider family and old friends were lost and we were unable to locate them in time to invite them to her funeral.

It's made us siblings very keen to ensure our own legal/financial paperwork is up to date and that DC know how they can access everything should they need to, and know our wishes. With so much being on our phones (address lists, logins etc) they also know our phone passwords.