Page 5 | Person going into care home thinks they have avoided selling their house to pay fees?

LindorDoubleChoc · 2023-08-11T18:59:34+00:00

A distant relative has just sadly gone into care (dementia). He is not married but has a long-term partner with whom he has two adult children. His family seem to think he won't have to sell his property to pay for the fees because "he has put his house in his son's name". I'm trying to think what this means and surely if it were that simple everyone would do it? Are they misunderstanding the system? Or how could they have achieved this? They are in England.

saraclara · 14/08/2023 00:09

Her income from her work pension, rather.

saraclara · 14/08/2023 00:08

Trez1510 · 13/08/2023 23:39

What did the council say when you demanded your mother be transferred to a home where others were not directly subsidising her? Were they helpful?

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They moved her to an extra care facility to save money. Her income from her work.pays for her rent, and she pays her own utilities and food etc. Her state pension and benefits go straight to the council. The council now only picks up her care. Despite being paralysed she only gets four care visits a day.

She burned through (at an estimate) £400,000 for her care before they took over. Could be considerably more as I know what her house was worth but not how much savings she had. I estimate that around £150,00 of that was not spent on her, but on other people. So I'm not going to feel remotely bad about some of her own money coming back to her now. It's not going to be anything like the amount she spent on subsidising others.

Sisterpita · 13/08/2023 23:59

@MereDintofPandiculation Most people are not in hospital long term. Some benefits may stop when in hospital for a long time.

in the short term you still have to pay daily standing charges and other bills.

turtle8919 · 13/08/2023 23:52

It makes me sick that someone should be made to sell their home for fees. Something they may have worked hard to achieve and pay off vs someone who hasn't had to pay a mortgage all those years getting free care! It's like being penalised for wanting to leave something behind for the children

anonymousxoxo · 13/08/2023 23:47

punnedout · 13/08/2023 21:22

Such a cop out comment. Take some responsibility.

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No

DuesToTheDirt · 13/08/2023 23:41

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/08/2023 23:33

Someone in hospital doesn't have heating bills or food to pay. Obviously they need to maintain their house. But what are their savings for, if not for when they fall on hard times - why should illness be excluded?
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone's ability to go on holiday, buy a car, or go out to fancy restaurants?

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You have a point, but only I think for end-of-life cases, with no dependents. I don't want a system like the US, where 30-year olds can face a lifetime of debt paying for their cancer treatment, or for major operations. Even if you limited the cost to their savings, you are affecting their partner and their children. I wouldn't have an issue with 90-year olds in the same situation being asked to use their savings before getting paid for by the state.

Trez1510 · 13/08/2023 23:39

saraclara · 13/08/2023 23:27

I wouldn't mind paying for my own care. What I mind is that I'd be subsidising the person on the next room who is not self-funding.
While my mum was self funding, her care home costs were £6,000 a month. When her money ran out and the council took over, the care home only charged the council £4,000 a month.

The care home manager was entirely open with us that the shortfall is made up with what the self-funding residents are charged.

Now THAT'S immoral.

What did the council say when you demanded your mother be transferred to a home where others were not directly subsidising her? Were they helpful?

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/08/2023 23:38

If I'm honest I feel that my dad isn't really "there" any more, just his body, and I do sometimes now feel frustrated about the financial situation, but that's probably a different thread. Yes, it seems to me a criminal waste of money if the person is "no longer there" AND if they had expressed the wish, while competent, not to be kept alive long after their mind had gone.

If the state wants to keep my physical body alive when II am no longer me and against my wishes, the state should damned well pay for it.

Sisterpita · 13/08/2023 23:35

@saraclara that is wrong.
@MoralOrLegal I am sorry, it is very difficult to be in that position.

Amabitnewhere · 13/08/2023 23:33

NotImpressedByYourBragging · 11/08/2023 21:10

My husband and I are seeing a financial advisor soon, with the idea of signing our house over to a family trust - we're in our early 60s, no health problems as such, but want to avoid our AC having to sell our home to pay for care fees, in the future.

How does this work? Does the house bring in a trust protect it?

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/08/2023 23:33

DuesToTheDirt · 13/08/2023 23:05

Not the same thing. People in care homes no longer need their house to live in (unless there is a spouse, which is covered elsewhere). They are also typically end of life, and have no other personal financial needs - without the house, they don't have heating bills, or food to buy. They can't go on holiday, or buy a car, or go out to fancy restaurants.

So, the money from house and/or savings either gets spent on their care, which is basically their living costs after all, or it gets passed on as inheritance - with taxpayers funding this.

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Someone in hospital doesn't have heating bills or food to pay. Obviously they need to maintain their house. But what are their savings for, if not for when they fall on hard times - why should illness be excluded?
Why should the taxpayer subsidise someone's ability to go on holiday, buy a car, or go out to fancy restaurants?

EleanorLucyG · 13/08/2023 23:29

SequentialAnalyst · 12/08/2023 21:51

I have a friend whose mother, now in her late nineties, went into quite a nice care home of her own volition, after living at home and having to go in and out of hospital a few times.

At her request and with her permission her family put her, now empty, house on the market, as everyone could foresee her small amount savings running out.

They got an offer, but it fell through. Meanwhile, she ran out of money, and had an LA assessment. When it came through, it was to offer carers 4 times a day in her own home.

Which had been totally cleared, and was still on the market. Friend explained the situation to the LA, but they were adamant. So DC have been paying the care home fees, and she will pay them back when the house is sold. Which hopefully will happen soon, as the house is now under offer again.

It's been a nightmare for the whole family And none of the DC are well off.

Oh hells bells. I don't think she'll be able to pay them back when the house is sold. It'll be deprivation of assets. Unless perhaps the children had it legally drawn up that the money they were giving her for the care home fees was a loan?

saraclara · 13/08/2023 23:27

I wouldn't mind paying for my own care. What I mind is that I'd be subsidising the person on the next room who is not self-funding.
While my mum was self funding, her care home costs were £6,000 a month. When her money ran out and the council took over, the care home only charged the council £4,000 a month.

The care home manager was entirely open with us that the shortfall is made up with what the self-funding residents are charged.

Now THAT'S immoral.

MoralOrLegal · 13/08/2023 23:10

@Sisterpita Yes, that all makes a lot of sense. I have always known that care-home fees are very high for that reason. My dad is looked after well. He had around five good years of living in a lovely place round the corner from us (at his choice) and seeing his grandchildren at a crucial stage of their development, before he sadly became confused and unable to recognise anyone (some six years ago). I don't begrudge the fees (from selling his home) for that.

(If I'm honest I feel that my dad isn't really "there" any more, just his body, and I do sometimes now feel frustrated about the financial situation, but that's probably a different thread.)

DuesToTheDirt · 13/08/2023 23:05

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/08/2023 22:53

So would you take the same view with health care? Surely it is equally entitled to expect the state to pay for your medical care if you have assets to contribute to it?

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Not the same thing. People in care homes no longer need their house to live in (unless there is a spouse, which is covered elsewhere). They are also typically end of life, and have no other personal financial needs - without the house, they don't have heating bills, or food to buy. They can't go on holiday, or buy a car, or go out to fancy restaurants.

So, the money from house and/or savings either gets spent on their care, which is basically their living costs after all, or it gets passed on as inheritance - with taxpayers funding this.

CelestiaNoctis · 13/08/2023 23:01

I'm not sure of the answer to your question. But to say that care homes that are state funded are horrible is a misconception. My FIL is in a care home paid for with his pension and its pretty nice. It has a garden and the room is like a small apartment. I'm not sure what more proper money would get you really.

SheilaFentiman · 13/08/2023 23:01

Sisterpita · 13/08/2023 20:41

I am always surprised that people don’t think through what going into care actually means. If you go into a care home, that becomes your home.

Realistically would someone in a care home keep the family home empty and continue to pay council tax, gas, electric, water, phone/broadband, insurance, maintenance for 2,5, 10 years? Most people either sell or family move in and take over the bills. Either way the person who is in the care home sees a drastic reduction in their monthly/annual expenditure.

Care homes charge residents for their share of the council tax, gas, electric, water, phone/broadband, buildings insurance, maintenance etc. As well as food and drink. Residents would only be responsible for paying for contents insurance and toiletries, clothes etc. Why should residents not pay this charge? Is it not reasonable to ask a resident to pay for the services they would have had to pay in their own home?

Currently National Minimum Wage (NMW) is £10.42. £10.42 x 24 hours x 365 days = £91,279.2 per year. On top you have employer NI, pension contributions, admin overheads, plus the fact that you need to cover annual leave etc. You are looking at over 100k a year to have 24 hour care in your own home, a care home achieves economies of scale that make it less expensive when shared out. Is it really unreasonable for a resident to pay their share of the costs of providing them with care?

Is it immoral to pay carers NMW, is it immoral to charge for buying and cooking food, providing heating, light and water?

Good post

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/08/2023 22:53

punnedout · 13/08/2023 21:03

100% agree with this. It’s an incredibly selfish and entitled attitude - as if society owes somebody care even though the person has assets to cover it. It needs to be stamped out.

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So would you take the same view with health care? Surely it is equally entitled to expect the state to pay for your medical care if you have assets to contribute to it?

Ohpleeeease · 13/08/2023 22:29

*Nothing is fair about social funding.

Ohpleeeease · 13/08/2023 22:28

Nothing is fair about how social finding. PAYE employees are subsidising people who get to submit their own tax returns with all the deductibles available to them. People who fall below the benefit threshold qualify for a huge range of benefits denied to those who are only slightly above it.

If people have the nous to find a way of passing something on to their children, good luck to them. They will have paid their dues in other ways.

JFM27 · 13/08/2023 22:21

It depends. What they have done. Is the partner over 60 and do they have tenancy in ccommon. Do they both own a share of home, i was an only child who lived with my parents, my mum left me her share of house when she died. When time came for my dad to go into care, i was 60 and owned half the house.the council could do nothing you cant sell half a house and if partner ot relative over 60 lives there and its their home thry cant sell it to pay for fees..so our house was safe.

If given to son who presumably doesent live there could be different .

Sisterpita · 13/08/2023 22:21

@VaccineSticker no that is the cost of having 24/7 care in your own home. I said a nursing home achieves economies of scale by not offering 1:1.

lindyloo57 · 13/08/2023 22:11

Example my sister on benefits all her life, free rent , council tax, my husband and I brought our council house, we still live there in our late 60s early 70s, didn't buy to sell just wanted to own our own house, so yes if it happens she gets free care, we don't, it makes you think, unless you are very wealthy is it worth owning your own home. Hopefully we won't need care, and our children can inherit.

VaccineSticker · 13/08/2023 22:01

Sisterpita · 13/08/2023 20:41

I am always surprised that people don’t think through what going into care actually means. If you go into a care home, that becomes your home.

Realistically would someone in a care home keep the family home empty and continue to pay council tax, gas, electric, water, phone/broadband, insurance, maintenance for 2,5, 10 years? Most people either sell or family move in and take over the bills. Either way the person who is in the care home sees a drastic reduction in their monthly/annual expenditure.

Care homes charge residents for their share of the council tax, gas, electric, water, phone/broadband, buildings insurance, maintenance etc. As well as food and drink. Residents would only be responsible for paying for contents insurance and toiletries, clothes etc. Why should residents not pay this charge? Is it not reasonable to ask a resident to pay for the services they would have had to pay in their own home?

Currently National Minimum Wage (NMW) is £10.42. £10.42 x 24 hours x 365 days = £91,279.2 per year. On top you have employer NI, pension contributions, admin overheads, plus the fact that you need to cover annual leave etc. You are looking at over 100k a year to have 24 hour care in your own home, a care home achieves economies of scale that make it less expensive when shared out. Is it really unreasonable for a resident to pay their share of the costs of providing them with care?

Is it immoral to pay carers NMW, is it immoral to charge for buying and cooking food, providing heating, light and water?

Ha Ha Ha because every care home resident has a 1:1 carer entirely for them 24/7 365.

Where is this care-home so I can sign up?

punnedout · 13/08/2023 21:50

TheCrystalPalace · 13/08/2023 21:49

Are you new here?
Mumsnet is RENOWNED for swearing.
Netmums is >>>>>>> that way.

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No I’m not new - I’m just clearly unobservant 😂