Person going into care home thinks they have avoided selling their house to pay fees?

“And by the same token, why don’t people pay living costs when in hospital? “

@MereDintofPandiculation i woild
imagine partly because people are in days or weeks, rather than months or years. But mostly because they still have a home that they rent, heat, light, say. Whereas the majority of care home residents have no further need for their home (though a spouse may be in it, of course).

The difference between bare minimum and what the more funded self places is incredible though.

My grandad was in the bare minimum place from approx 2011 till 2019. Now there were staff who truly cared and made a difference but a very high turn over and frequently staff didn't last. They were put in special measures twice in that time, there were 7 new managers and 9 assistant managers in that time including 1 manager who was one of those problem solvers brought in when shit hit the fan.

She moved across to a new care home as she was head hunted (understandable as she was incredible) and the manager after her was horrendous (like we as family members had to get safe guarding called in she was that bad, ever passing messages, staff in tears in her office, not enough staff on, huge turn over even more than usual, meds no being given or left instead of supervised, faking paperwork when cqc were in. That's just the tip of it. She's not allowed to work in care now). We were looking to move in and as we'd got on so well with the manager before we went for a look... More than the bare minimum of staff, didn't spell of wee as soon as iu got inside, the staff were happy, the residents elated, call bells answered within 2 minutes, a private physio, a gym, a sports area, an honesty pub (literal pub you could use for events too) a shopping "center" designed to look like way back when... I could go in. The rooms were ensuote too, every single one. I'd want to go there for a holiday it was that good! But it was over twice the price of what he had minimally funded by the LA and wasn't possible (he hadn't owned his own home)

7 years for inheritance tax only starts to run if you haven't 'reserved a benefit' in the gift. So if you give away a house but continue to live in it you haven't made a true gift for iht, and it's still assessed as part of your estate.

Unless the donor pays market rent as pps have mentioned.

Some of those saying 'oh but the 7 years have passed' will get a nasty tax shock (I see this frequently in a work context).

This may be the most eye-opening thread I’ve seen in my history of MN. I had no idea that you could be a self-funder and live in the same care home as someone who hasn’t had property to use for their care. Anyone else shocked about this?

I can certainly see why some folks gift their properties to their adult kids. Selling the property and using the money to travel and make the most of your life (whilst you don’t need care then depending on the government to care for you when you need it) is also something that’s viable, though equally as morally dubious. I suppose it’s all a gamble.

Apologies but I haven't read the whole thread, just OPs comments and the early pages.

I looked at Age UK's advice and when you transfer assets can make a difference. If you transfer years before the event, when you had no idea that you might need care later (but how many do that?) then it isn't relevant.

However, most pull this stunt when care needs are looming and it will be investigated. Then they'll treat you as though you still have the asset, be it house, jewellery, vintage car collection whatever.

It's not just having a choice of which care home it's when. The council will only pay for a place in a home when it is really absolutely necessary and 4 visits a day isn't enough. But that 4 visits a day won't be covering cleaning or maintenance of the property. It won't cover shopping. It won't cover medical, dental or optician appointments. It won't cover all the admin with running a home. It won't provide company or stimulating activities. Self funders can choose to go into a pleasant home a bit earlier, when it suits all their needs rather than wait until the umpteenth time the carers have arrived at 9am to find they got out of bed at 2am and have been lying in urine and faeces for 7 hours.

Yes, the Solicitor has gone through all of this with her. They’ve been very honest with her about the potential downsides as well as the positives so she’s going into it fully informed. She’s spent many months thinking over it and talking to my dad about it (although they are divorced) and she told me about 3 weeks ago that she wanted to do it.

I was a little surprised but she’s made her decision and I understand her reasons why.

To b honest, I think she’s hoping that Euthanasia will be legal in the UK by that point as ending up in a nursing home is something she really, really doesn’t want.

It probably was that but it was city centre market rent and they struggled to pay it, having to borrow money. Not what I'd want for my parents, having to scrape together cash. His siblings were furious.

Trouble is, if you gift the house away (and get away with it!) you're then entirely reliant on what council funded places are available. The care would probably be fine (and probably better!) than in an expensive private home but it could be miles from anyone who might want to visit you, you won't get to choose which home or room.

And the stage before that, as not everyone gets into a home. Councils will keep people at home as long as possible with often hit-or-miss care visits. You could end up isolated at home with constantly changing carers. If you still own your own house you can choose to sell it and move into residential care. A council won't fund this.

@SheilaFentiman Unreasonable to pay nothing. But most people going into care aren’t paying anything like £1000 a week for their living costs at home. (Nor are they paying an extra 40% to subsidise those being funded by the LA)

And by the same token, why don’t people pay living costs when in hospital?

I think there’s two reasons 1) because dementia wasn’t such a problem back in 1946 when the NHS and “care from cradle to grave” was being set up. Same way that the list of illnesses attracting free prescriptions is so arbitrary compered with today’s needs and available drugs 2) as a society, we don’t value older people.

My father was until recently, in a very expensive care home, south coast.

He had excellent care, it was a purpose built home so plenty of room in corridors, rooms were spacious with lovely furniture, large en suite shower rooms, again, very spacious. He liked the food, they had lots of special events, BBQ in the summer plus afternoon teas every now and then, special themed meals.

Having seen how well he was looked after, no way would I risk not having enough money to pay for best quality care should I need it in the future. The last thing I would do would be to sign my property over to someone else whereby you could end up with nothing if they turn out to be extremely dishonest.

I think you would be an idiot to be honest.

@TakenRoot yep!!!! We had this conversation the other day! But he's told her how it will benefit her and how bil wouldn't kick her out! I've told her a million times but she just takes everything he says as the sworn truth

That's because dad died after mum.

if he had died before then you would have been contacted about using the value of the house to pay for her care.

Yep and it happens more than people realise!

anyone trying to avoid care fees by passing things over to their children must be very very certain of the solidity of their offspring's marriage now and in the future...

Pretty much.

there may be other factors but once the home is 'available' it gets taken into account for the financial assessment which are redone yearly by default and sooner if needed.

the 12 week property disregard is something different though - that is a 3 month period after you have moved into a care home where the local authority disregard the value of your property from the calculation.

@Paul2023 my mum was in a state funded care home for 6 years before she died, all her pension was paid to care home and my Dad paid another £200 per month. Dad lived in marital home and died some 7 years later. The house was left to us children and nobody contacted us regarding paying any monies and I’m sure if there were anything owed, we would have heard about it, so I don’t believe they do this, but this was 8 years ago now.

All the people going on about council run care homes - how many of these exist where you live? Where I am there is one and the rest of private.

The council one is really popular and well runs however most people end up in the private ones funded by the council- same room as the self-funder next door. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I wouldn't do this because the care homes that have fees low enough for fully-funded council places are so much more grim and unpleasant than the homes that are a bit more expensive.

If you've got a house and no longer need it because you are going into a residential care home for the last few years of yout life then it's absolutely the best use of that money to use it to pay for those last few years to be comfortable.

I would rather not inherit a penny from my parents but know they are safe, comfortable and well cared for in a high quality care home, rather than cooperate with them being neglected and unhappy in an inadequately funded, understaffed minimum-fee care home, just so that my inheritance could be preserved.

What happens in these cases where DPs have signed over their house to a DC, and that DC then goes through a divorce and has to split assets with spouse. Or becomes bankrupt? DPs then homeless?

May I ask a question ? I’ve heard of a property disregard. So if a couple own a property and one of them goes into a cafe home, the property can’t be sold as there is still someone living there.

What happens if the person in the care home dies and then the other person dies at
home?

Do the authorities basically split the property value into two and take the share of the person who died in the care home to fund the care they received? Leaving the other 50% of the property to whoever is in the will?

He was possibly charging market rent for Inheritance Tax reasons - it doesn’t count as a gift if you still benefit from it, eg living in it below market rent, so it’s still regarded as part of your Estate.

I was going to post something along these lines. Avoiding care fees is one thing, but you need to think what sort of care will be available to you.

The first share was within 5 years of death. The rest was signed over within a year. No will. Property worth over £1m with no mortgage.

Does she know that were you to die before her (and without a will) the property would go automatically to your spouse? And if no spouse your kids will need to pay inheritance tax if this bumps your assets to over the threshold? Better for the property to be in their names as it’s effectively tax free for them.

A gift more than 7 years ago falls outside of iht.

remember also that iht is only due on estates above a certain value