Dementia, stage 4 cancer. Care entitlement and nursing homes?

@Pariswithkids you sound like you are a very caring person, and are facing a difficult time. regardless of the funding issues I’d like to remind you that the LA is still legally obliged to offer an assessment of your MIL’s needs, relevant advice and an assessment of your needs as carer. This is not a chargeable service.
Maybe tomorrow it will be SCUBA diving :-)

@ Hatgirl So if the person who gave the money away had capacity at the time, but had since lost it, the Court would determine where the money needed to come from. But the attorney themselves, if they hadn't received any of the money, wouldn't face legal sanctions since it was done before the person had lost capacity? Sorry, I'm going down rabbit holes here.

Yes that is correct.

There would be legal consequences if the fees weren't subsequently paid. The local authority could take the person themselves (if they were still capacitated) or their deputy to court. The court would then determine who needed to stump up the cash/ sell assets / have a charge put on their property to pay the fees.

It's quite rare for this to happen because usually families try and avoid ending up in court and funds reappear.

If the local authority feel that money has been 'stolen' or taken fraudulently by the attornies rather than given willingly by the donor then they would refer this to the police and open a safeguarding enquiry.

The police can and do prosecute. Many examples of this can be found by Google for lesser sums being discussed by the OP.

The local authority will always make sure the person is looked after regardless of money but that doesn't mean they won't pursue it robustly through the courts in the background.

@Pariswithkids Please don’t let the emotion of what @hatgirl says get in the way of listening to what she’s saying. She’s giving you what the LA’s view will be. She has consistently given sound advice on this board for several years, please don’t let the hurt get in the way of listening to it.

You’re in a dreadful situation not of your making. The blame goes in order to your solicitor, your BIL, and to your DH for being gullible.

If you seek further legal advice, look for a solicitor who is a member of the association of solicitors with special expertise in the affairs of the elderly.

I would ask her GP to refer to the district nurses. If she has a terminal diagnosis and is beginning to deteriorate I would ask the GP to review on a home visit and say you are concerned about her deterioration.

It sounds like she is at the stage where she may benefit from a fast track assessment from the district nurses rather than a CHC assessment. If a person meets the criteria on a fast track assessment it enables free care to be put in place quite quickly.

The district nurses would also be able to order things like a hospital bed if needed. This may help keep her more comfortable at home/make it easier for her to get in and out of bed.

This.

DH is getting confused with Inheritance Tax.

What I meant was, if a DC over 60, is caring for a parent in the parent’s home, then the LA can’t force the sale of the house to pay for care home fees - my guess is they could put a charge over the house. They could still expect BIL, over 60 to pay DM’s money for the annex back; if he was under 60 and couldn’t pay it back, the LA could expect the sale of the house to recover DM’s contribution?

No point, we’re must of us reading this, and the Cafe is meant for chat and support and things that aren’t enough to start a thread of their own

@hatgirl Am I right in thinking that the the consequence of deprivation of assets is that the assessment is made as if the money were still in the person’s possession (meaning potentially that the recipient would need to give it back). That there’s no legal consequences, eg fines?

and what’s the last ditch resort - money has been given away, recipient no longer has it, no relatives are willing or able to fund … what happens?

At any rate she can go into a care home paid for with public funds if she has no assets but it will be a nasty cheap one with a horrid little bedroom, smelling of piss and cabbage and the only one with any space might be miles away. That’s ridiculous. There are good homes and bad homes at every level. Money gets you choice, it doesn’t necessarily get you better care, as some of the posts on this thread demonstrate.

It’s not necessarily true to say “At any rate she can go into a care home paid for with public funds if she has no assets” That’s not necessarily true. If there has been “deliberate deprivation of assets”, eg she has been giving away large sums to her children, then the financial assessment is done as if she still had possession of that money, and she may be assessed as needing to make a contribution.

Also, the question of an LPA paying themselves for care, as @hatgirl said, the OPG might be interested in it

https://www.brethertons.co.uk/site/blog/covid19-can-an-attorney-pay-a-relative-for-care

IMO, BIL didn’t seek legal advice at all!

I doubt it would matter as it's not earned income more like a monthly gift if BIL hasn't actually been caring anyway ! There's no way anyone could ever prove it was earnings, he hasn't been taxed on it or been through HMRC. Just like cash in hand really.

Imo, either BIL has paid himself for care, in which case, he was over the weekly limit for carers allowance; and he should have declared it to HMRC; or if he was taking it as a gift, isn’t that fraud and deliberate deprivation of assets?

He could also find, unless he is over 60, that the LA ask for the sum back, spent on the annex? Ditto DH the improvements on his house? They have benefited from the uplift in value in their houses.

I went to a talk by a solicitor on this, and he said if a parent puts money in DC’s house for an annex, there should be a legal document drawn up, to say the money is in respect of care for the rest of their life; otherwise the LA could ask for the money back, if the parent needs a care home in the future:

https://www.hughes-paddison.co.uk/site/blog/private_client/the-granny-annexe-matters-to-consider

I doubt it would matter as it's not earned income more like a monthly gift if BIL hasn't actually been caring anyway ! There's no way anyone could ever prove it was earnings, he hasn't been taxed on it or been through HMRC. Just like cash in hand really.

One thing that hasn’t been discussed that may be a problem is being in receipt of Carers Allowance and getting £800 as well. There is a maximum weekly income allowed in order to receive CA of about £115 I think.
Your BIL has been receiving it for 8years without declaring the £800pm income. However, unlikely to be police matter if he pays it back.
But make sure your DH doesn’t claim without declaring this income

@hatgirl what fraud is it that you think DH has committed?

It sounds like OP and her DH didn’t even know carers’ allowance was being claimed by BIL until they started a claim for it once they were the sole carers.

OP, by OPG, she means Office of the Public Guardian. They oversee LPAs. Whilst your BIL and DH probably should have stopped the carer payments to him, I do not see that this would ever be a police matter, though there might be a request to repay that money to the estate for the time he was no longer caring.

In any event, I doubt this thread will do you any further good, OP. Come over to the cockroach cafe if you like.

Look, I appreciate this is not a situation of YOUR making. I've acknowledged you have most likely provided excellent care for your MIL for YEARS whilst your BIL siphoned off money he wasn't always entitled to and convinced your DH to go along with it trapping him in the same web of fraud.

you sound at the end of your tether. You work full time. You are a carer. You have your own social worker apparently as well, suggesting you have other complications going on in your life.

but

If the choice is between MIL getting additional care and DH having a visit from the police for fraud, and potentially court action, who do you choose to protect?

Who will your DH and BIL choose to protect?

You have posted on mumsnet seeking help and advice. My advice - protect yourself and MIL first.

good luck.

I think you have taken a lot of stick on here @Pariswithkids that you are not really deserving of. You have cared for this lady for 8 years, whilst also working full-time. That is a big ask of anyone. It is easy to judge people when you have never been in that position.

You need to sit your DH and your BIL down and have a honest discussion about this next stage of her care. People have a choice about where they would like to die if they have a terminal illness, I appreciate this will be difficult to discuss with MIL due to her dementia, but has she ever mentioned it in the past ? The options are home, hospital, hospice or nursing home.
A lot depends on her prognosis, so months or weeks ? how well her symptoms are managed, is she experiencing any pain ?
There are a lot of things that can be put in place if you choose to care for her at home, additional equipment, night sitters, carers, District nurses etc. But being honest, for the vast majority of the time, the hands on care will be down to you as a family mainly you

I don't think it's as easy as you seem to separate the two.

But if you think when the time comes you will be able to stand your ground against DH and BIL who will individually be facing action from the OPG and potentially even from the police, then good luck and I wish you all the best.

where do you get that I would avoid outside assistance? That’s what I’m asking for advice about

From the OP....

DH is worried our assets could now be I jeopardy to fund care

and

Is taking money for yourself like this a normal legal thing?

and

*I just don't want to lose my home if something is looked into'

and

does CHC not look into any finances?

I know you WANT to consider external help. My question is will you, if its the choice between external help and the finances being investigated?

BTW as LPOA your DH is equally as culpable as BIL if he knew BIL has been acting fraudently and didn't do anything about it.

It may be, sadly, that all the financial points are irrelevant if her prognosis is for a short time from here

“The diagnosis is very new, she’s been very ill even tonight. I don’t think I got this.”

I’m so sorry, OP