Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Elderly parents
Original poster

Court of protection deputyship

117 replies

rhetorician · 12/04/2023 15:49

hello - after much to-ing and fro-ing (I'll spare you the details which will be all too familiar to most of you) my mum is in discharge to assess waiting for a permanent residential placement. She is a self-funder (and her assets are quite significant, though her income is small) and I need to apply to the CoP for deputyship. This should be straightforward - she owns her house outright and I am her sole beneficiary and NOK. But I'm wondering if anyone knows how long the process might take? The issue is that until the order is granted I can't use the house to generate income and she will just be burning through her capital.

I guess I should also take some in the round financial advice, given that whilst she has dementia, she is otherwise fairly medically well for an 89 year old...

TIA

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 16:33

I should say - thank you all for these responses - really helpful for me to try and work through all the angles in terms of the decisions that lie ahead - I really appreciate it FlowersFlowersFlowers

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 16:24

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2023 15:15

To be perfectly honest, if your mum is concerned about where her care home is located, then does she not still have some capacity? In which case, applying for Deputyship isn’t appropriate.
However, if she does meet the criteria for Deputyship, then without sounding crass, where she lives would be irrelevant. I would be looking at somewhere that is suitable for her, but also suitable for yourself to visit regularly. My stepfather could be in the middle of nowhere as far as he knows and can understand. When he was more aware, he said he wanted to live in Scotland where he came from. He lives no where near Scotland but is happy because he THINKS he does.

She isn't - but London is convenient for me and easy to reach from Dublin with multiple options airport wise - and that reduces cost for me also. Together with that, at least in London I know a few people and can meet up when I visit mum (realistically about an hour and half each visit is as much as either of us can do). If I move her out of London, I may as well move her here - which I'm not keen to do for a whole host of reasons (cost being uppermost).

Definitely meet the criteria - not one person who has dealt with her since last hospital admission (late Feb) has suggested for a moment that there is any doubt about her not having capacity. So I am inferring I guess from things she says and what I know of her over our very long relationship that she would prefer to stay in London?

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 15/04/2023 15:15

To be perfectly honest, if your mum is concerned about where her care home is located, then does she not still have some capacity? In which case, applying for Deputyship isn’t appropriate.
However, if she does meet the criteria for Deputyship, then without sounding crass, where she lives would be irrelevant. I would be looking at somewhere that is suitable for her, but also suitable for yourself to visit regularly. My stepfather could be in the middle of nowhere as far as he knows and can understand. When he was more aware, he said he wanted to live in Scotland where he came from. He lives no where near Scotland but is happy because he THINKS he does.

Stepbystep100 · 15/04/2023 15:11

I can't help with deputyships but ordinary POAs take a while

We prepared ours in December and sent them off in January fully signed (and checked as we used a will/POA writer). After about 2 weeks the OPG cashed the fee cheques. Then a couple of weeks later formal letters were sent out advising of the application and giving three months to complain! So, we are assuming nothing then happens for 3 months. I can see it being nearly 6 by the time it's all in place! Pleased I started when I was 60!

For ordinary POAs we paid £120 each - we had financial and health done so £240 per person

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 15:00

Ah, fair enough and completely understandable. It must be so hard for you doing this from abroad Flowers

Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 14:06

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 13:04

Also, will she be in a care home in London? I appreciate this may well be the easiest for visiting but also probably the most expensive place to be :-(

Yes, she will. I take your point, but I just don't have the time or bandwidth to look into options elsewhere - plus at least in London there's a slim possibility that someone other than me might occasionally visit her. She's lived in London all her life and is now close to where her parents and sisters are buried and that matters to her. Realistically she isn't going to run out of money unless she lives to be 100.

OP posts:
SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 13:04

Also, will she be in a care home in London? I appreciate this may well be the easiest for visiting but also probably the most expensive place to be :-(

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 12:57

So, with renting:

  • do you know if the amount of rent would cover the care home fees, less agency fees (which may be high given you aren’t in the country for things like replacing a washing machine)?
  • are there savings to cover any void period, when the house is between tenants?
  • tax wise, I believe the income would go to your mum and be taxed (less expenses like landlord insurance) at her usual rate (probably basic rate, unless her pension and investment income is pretty high). Again, this needs to be factored in to how much income she will actually get to cover care costs

Whilst you can take what you know to be her wishes into account, ultimately, if it is against her best interests to rent rather than sell the house or it is impossible for you to arrange from overseas, then I don’t think you would have any obligation to do this.

Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 12:24

PermanentTemporary · 15/04/2023 12:21

Renting sounds sensible to me if the money adds up. We did have a significant problem there as the nursing home we chose for Mum wanted 3 years' fees in cash in the bank before they would consider accepting her. However a) you may have that anyway b) I think to some extent they decided they'd underestimated her needs and didn't want to take her c) her interim placement broke down so dramatically that nowhere in the county would take her, so it all became moot.

Yes mum has enough money in investments etc plus her small income to keep her going for two years in any case. I suppose my logic is that I don't necessarily need to sell right away - I do need to get some advice I think about tax implications of renting. I don't live in the UK either, but I'm also not that far away and will need to visit mum once a month in any case.

OP posts:
sparklefresh · 15/04/2023 12:23

feebal · 12/04/2023 16:28

You do not need to use a solicitor. The forms are very straightforward. The errors can come in with the order of the signatures but to get around that just make sure they are all signed on the same day. You do not need to be in the UK to be a deputy. The application process is taking around a year at the moment.

Signature orders aren't particularly relevant for deputyship applications. You're thinking of powers of attorney. Very different process.

sparklefresh · 15/04/2023 12:22

rhetorician · 15/04/2023 12:12

Also, I would in an ideal world like to keep a property in London - even if a flat rather than a house, as there's is no way on God's earth that my kids will be able to afford a house there when they grow up.

But what your kids would want isn't relevant. It's your mum's house, her money, and her care costs that matter. Deputies must act in the best interests of the person whose affairs they're managing. You need to put any idea of 'preserving assets for your kids' out of your head completely.

PermanentTemporary · 15/04/2023 12:21

Renting sounds sensible to me if the money adds up. We did have a significant problem there as the nursing home we chose for Mum wanted 3 years' fees in cash in the bank before they would consider accepting her. However a) you may have that anyway b) I think to some extent they decided they'd underestimated her needs and didn't want to take her c) her interim placement broke down so dramatically that nowhere in the county would take her, so it all became moot.

MoralOrLegal · 15/04/2023 12:15

It's emotionally hard, but an alternative rather depends on your mum's life expectancy. In a very similar position, I sold the house and bought him an annuity. He's proving very long-lived so and we've "broken even" on the annuity cost, but everyone's situation is different.

Renting the house out might have proved better, I'll admit, but there were additional complications (the property is overseas) and the tax situation was already complex enough for me.

Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 12:12

Also, I would in an ideal world like to keep a property in London - even if a flat rather than a house, as there's is no way on God's earth that my kids will be able to afford a house there when they grow up.

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 12:02

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:28

Is it in a rentable condition eg ok decor, electrics all right etc?

It would need a bit of tlc - paint, good clean, new appliances, but it's basically sound, yes

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 15/04/2023 12:01

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:24

Why do you want to let the house rather than sell it?

Partly because it's what mum would do; partly because she is in decent physical health and may need care for some years. This way the house generates income towards her care and the asset is protected. Would you sell then? I can't think of any way I'm aware of to invest the money i a way that would even counter inflation

OP posts:
SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:30

pickledandpuzzled · 12/04/2023 19:28

What happens in the meantime, can anyone explain?
DM is resisting PoA, if she were to lose capacity without warning, what could we do? What would we be able to do on her behalf?
What would happen to her?

Sorry, should I start another thread?

Maybe a good idea to start another thread,?

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:28

Is it in a rentable condition eg ok decor, electrics all right etc?

SheilaFentiman · 15/04/2023 08:24

Why do you want to let the house rather than sell it?

Original poster
rhetorician · 13/04/2023 11:33

The online quote I've received asked for an documented internal inspection once a month, which sounds ok, given that I have made a commitment in my deputyship application to visit mum once a month.

OP posts:
MereDintofPandiculation · 12/04/2023 20:28

Mosaic123 · 12/04/2023 19:29

An empty house needs special insurance and usually to be visited once a week as a condition of insurance. If you don't have anyone willing to do this you may have to pay a letting agent.

We had to keep the heating on at 10C and 24/7 as one of the terms of the insurance.

Not necessarily as often as once a week. I had the choice of keeping heating on at 15deg 24/7 or turning off the water and draining the system

Original poster
rhetorician · 12/04/2023 20:20

JennyMule · 12/04/2023 19:53

Hi, the time estimate of a year from application to receipt of the order is realistic in my experience although the new "upfront notification" process is helping streamline things somewhat. Costs that you must pay are court fee (£371) and once the order is granted there's an annual OPG supervision fee (c£100) and you will also need to buy a type of insurance (against the risk of you making errors and mismanaging/losing money when acting as deputy) called the security bond - you will be sent info about this at the relevant time. If you choose to use a solicitor they'll typically charge around £1500-2000 plus Vat and disbursements for making the application for you, but if you are confident with forms and have time it's probably quicker for you to go down the DIY route (solicitor doing my profession out of business, here!)
Until you are able to access your mother's finances and enter into a contract for her care with a care home the local authority has a legal duty to contract for her care and pay the bills until you are able to reimburse using mum's money (called "an accrual.") If your mum has the means to afford a care home that is "more expensive" ie charges more than the LA standard rate (very low, less than self funders pay) and your mum (or you) want a more expensive care home you may be able to negotiate that they'll place her in a more costly home on the basis full reimbursement will eventually be forthcoming. Strangely in the world of care homes more expensive isn't necessarily the same as better - the absolute key thing is staffing - numbers and attitude thereof!
Good luck to you all at a very difficult time.

Thank you - this is incredibly helpful. I am happy to do it myself - the situation is straightforward as I am the only person involved, and luckily my mother was - before dementia - a very organised person wrt to finances, so everything is filed away and labelled. The only issue is a few things (an investment fund, national saving bond) that I don't have up to date information on - one the last statement is 2009, though there's correspondence from 2019, suspect that they moved everything on line and mum didn't trust online for money matters. But by 2019 she was no longer engaged with her finances, so I imagine those funds still exist and may be larger than I realise. BUT having said all that, there is enough money that I can access to keep her going for a year or two, adding in her income. However, she would be annoyed with me for just spending her money in this way - to which I would answer, well, should have given me POA then!!

OP posts:
JennyMule · 12/04/2023 19:53

Hi, the time estimate of a year from application to receipt of the order is realistic in my experience although the new "upfront notification" process is helping streamline things somewhat. Costs that you must pay are court fee (£371) and once the order is granted there's an annual OPG supervision fee (c£100) and you will also need to buy a type of insurance (against the risk of you making errors and mismanaging/losing money when acting as deputy) called the security bond - you will be sent info about this at the relevant time. If you choose to use a solicitor they'll typically charge around £1500-2000 plus Vat and disbursements for making the application for you, but if you are confident with forms and have time it's probably quicker for you to go down the DIY route (solicitor doing my profession out of business, here!)
Until you are able to access your mother's finances and enter into a contract for her care with a care home the local authority has a legal duty to contract for her care and pay the bills until you are able to reimburse using mum's money (called "an accrual.") If your mum has the means to afford a care home that is "more expensive" ie charges more than the LA standard rate (very low, less than self funders pay) and your mum (or you) want a more expensive care home you may be able to negotiate that they'll place her in a more costly home on the basis full reimbursement will eventually be forthcoming. Strangely in the world of care homes more expensive isn't necessarily the same as better - the absolute key thing is staffing - numbers and attitude thereof!
Good luck to you all at a very difficult time.

Soontobe60 · 12/04/2023 19:50

feebal · 12/04/2023 16:28

You do not need to use a solicitor. The forms are very straightforward. The errors can come in with the order of the signatures but to get around that just make sure they are all signed on the same day. You do not need to be in the UK to be a deputy. The application process is taking around a year at the moment.

I think youre confusing a Deputyship with power of attorney. I helped my MIL apply for POA and yes, it was straightforward. I attempted to complete an application for Deputyship for my stepfather and its very complex!

OP, I am using a solicitor, and she has quoted 2K approx, which will also include changing my Stepfather as a trustee to one of the solicitors, so we can sell the house (which was left to him and myself / siblings by my mum)
So far the process has taken 5 months - the forms were submitted just before Christmas. The forms required other people to complete reports - he has a DOLs and his mental health nurse had to complete some of it, plus his GP and the care home manager. I had to give details of all interested parties - so my siblings and his remaining family, they were written to and had 28 days (I think) to respond.

MMAMPWGHAP · 12/04/2023 19:47

I have the same terms on the inson my mum’s empty house