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Elderly parents
Original poster

Court of protection deputyship

117 replies

rhetorician · 12/04/2023 15:49

hello - after much to-ing and fro-ing (I'll spare you the details which will be all too familiar to most of you) my mum is in discharge to assess waiting for a permanent residential placement. She is a self-funder (and her assets are quite significant, though her income is small) and I need to apply to the CoP for deputyship. This should be straightforward - she owns her house outright and I am her sole beneficiary and NOK. But I'm wondering if anyone knows how long the process might take? The issue is that until the order is granted I can't use the house to generate income and she will just be burning through her capital.

I guess I should also take some in the round financial advice, given that whilst she has dementia, she is otherwise fairly medically well for an 89 year old...

TIA

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 25/04/2023 10:23

Does anyone know what would happen if the Court of Protection says no? Could I be in massive trouble for setting up (if bank permits) a direct debit for care home?

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 23/04/2023 18:23

Oaktree55 · 23/04/2023 17:59

I would just reiterate that even though there is a Deputyship in place for my uncle already (my dad but he's too old now) I was still advised to get a Psychiatric Report for my uncle even though he cannot talk and is extrememly mentally disabled and all of this is obviously on his medical notes. I think the advice is belt and braces approach will deter any further delays to a process which is currently taking 12 months with Court of Protection. If there is any grey area at all as to whether the person in question has capacity I would be extremely hesitant about not paying for a specific assessment. You may be ok but it may well not be depends if you can afford the potential delays.

Thank you. When I've seen the social worker report and the conclusions of the memory clinic assessment then I will review what's needed. It's so hard, especially when her mood and ability to absorb and retain information is so variable - and much improved in her new environment too.

OP posts:
Oaktree55 · 23/04/2023 17:59

I would just reiterate that even though there is a Deputyship in place for my uncle already (my dad but he's too old now) I was still advised to get a Psychiatric Report for my uncle even though he cannot talk and is extrememly mentally disabled and all of this is obviously on his medical notes. I think the advice is belt and braces approach will deter any further delays to a process which is currently taking 12 months with Court of Protection. If there is any grey area at all as to whether the person in question has capacity I would be extremely hesitant about not paying for a specific assessment. You may be ok but it may well not be depends if you can afford the potential delays.

Original poster
rhetorician · 17/04/2023 19:36

SheilaFentiman · 17/04/2023 18:15

What a lovely post @BinaryDot

It really is <I have something in my eye>

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 17/04/2023 19:35

BinaryDot · 17/04/2023 18:09

Hi OP

If you start a thread about an elderly parent, you can trigger people's own issues and attitudes and sometimes get scolded for it.

I'm in a very similar situation to you, not with the Deputyship because I have Lasting Power of Attorney but in many of the other aspects. I'm sorry, I don't know anything further about Deputyships, PP have had more info.

You have done everything right. You have seen that your DM has had all the assessments needed and is going through the system as needed. You are doing this because you want to not because you have a statutory duty to, unlike all these other agencies.

You are very much taking your DM's interests into account, there's no such thing as perfect 'best interests', everything is a compromise. What is very much in your DM's best interest is having a sane and functioning daughter who can advocate in important circumstances and visit her, and in order to do that you need her to be somewhere you can visit without more stress than necessary. You have zero obligation to have her live near you either, and it seems where she currently lives is ideal because she's always lived there and other people could visit too and you yourself can get there, be less stressed by ease of travel and supportive friends in what would otherwise be a lonely situation. I do the same, and I wouldn't listen to random outside opinions on it. Everyone professionally involved with my DM is very supportive of me doing the same as you propose.

I have never had any professional be anything other than grateful for all the admin and money I have sorted out and for the arrangements I've made for my DM. No-one has ever asked me to prove what I am spending money on or making arrangements about. The only time any such thing would come into consideration is when my DM finally runs out of money, on a similar timescale to yours, so I keep decent accounts (there was a period when she had capacity to make broad financial decisions, she doesn't have much idea now). I'm responsible with my DM's money, I make my best judgements that spending on particular things will help her, by far the biggest cost, dwarfing all others, is the care home, and I don't worry about some auditor looking over my shoulder. I do my best to ensure the care home she lives in is fulfilling their role, and others who have a hand in her care. That's a lot. It would not be in my DM's interests for me to hand over POA to her solicitor, stop visiting, wash my hands. I could and no-one would want me to do any of that, so they're happy my needs are met too.

I would not hang on to the house, though, I would let it go when you're able. It's also possible as you know to get an attachment on the property to pay care fees, my DM's local council would have done this. The restrictions and pitfalls of letting, especially being a non-professional absentee landlord, could be very stressful. The income generated would be nowhere near what care costs and you'd likely have to do work to bring it up to regs, not to mention the paperwork, regs, maintenance and angst of bad tenants even if you're paying an agency. I would sell it and lock the money in the highest-interest account possible: interest rates are normalising higher than they used to be. You could get advice from a reputable IFA.

Good luck, get support from people who are on your side.

Thank you - that's very kind of you. Yes, all I meant about the friends thing (I only have about 2 friends in London now I haven't lived there since I was 18) was that being able to have a cup of coffee with someone after these sometimes bleak and emotionally tough visits might be welcome, given that I've no siblings or cousins to decompress with.

I have had nothing but excellent support from everyone involved in mum's care - she was in fact sent to discharge to assess by the liaison social worker in the hospital - despite the fact that she thinks that I put her in the home. They all agree that she needs full time care now.

I have to say I am coming to the same conclusion about the house - it would also need a good bit of upgrading to be in letting condition (it's sound but decor is dated, appliances old etc) which would also be an additional cost. And there are tax implications, and as someone else pointed out, I would have trouble giving notice to tenants in time if I needed to put it on the market. I'm talking to a financial advisor about what it would be best to do with sale proceeds.

I do really appreciate you taking the time to post. Thank you - and good luck with your own situation too

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 17/04/2023 19:29

MoralOrLegal · 17/04/2023 18:30

I completely agree with PP... you are doing the very best you can in difficult circumstances. Mine were/are similar, with another complication of having to get the Deputyship recognised in a foreign country in order to become joint account-holder with my dad on his bank account there (he couldn't move it to the UK as he doesn't have enough current ID!) That in itself has various tax implications and I cheerfully do all the paperwork (I'm registered to do that with HMRC, something else you might need to do; get lots of certified copies of the deputyship order before sending any off to financial institutions).

The annuity doesn't cover all of his care home fees, and we're running down capital on a similar time-scale (he'll be fine until he's a bit over 100). All the professionals I come into contact with are, like @BinaryDot, nothing but thankful that I'm doing all of this.

The current twist of the knife is that he doesn't recognise me or the family any more and gets agitated/distressed by visits. So it's in his best interests for me just to keep in touch with the care home staff (he's deaf as a post so phone is out). I try hard not to see this as a failing on my part.

Good luck!

Thank you - it's so tough isn't it? So much complex stuff to sort out, and hoping that you're doing the right things. I did try to explain to her about 10 years ago that POA was the way to go, especially given that I would be operating across jurisdictions, but it fell on deaf ears, unfortunately.

OP posts:
MoralOrLegal · 17/04/2023 18:30

I completely agree with PP... you are doing the very best you can in difficult circumstances. Mine were/are similar, with another complication of having to get the Deputyship recognised in a foreign country in order to become joint account-holder with my dad on his bank account there (he couldn't move it to the UK as he doesn't have enough current ID!) That in itself has various tax implications and I cheerfully do all the paperwork (I'm registered to do that with HMRC, something else you might need to do; get lots of certified copies of the deputyship order before sending any off to financial institutions).

The annuity doesn't cover all of his care home fees, and we're running down capital on a similar time-scale (he'll be fine until he's a bit over 100). All the professionals I come into contact with are, like @BinaryDot, nothing but thankful that I'm doing all of this.

The current twist of the knife is that he doesn't recognise me or the family any more and gets agitated/distressed by visits. So it's in his best interests for me just to keep in touch with the care home staff (he's deaf as a post so phone is out). I try hard not to see this as a failing on my part.

Good luck!

SheilaFentiman · 17/04/2023 18:15

What a lovely post @BinaryDot

BinaryDot · 17/04/2023 18:09

Hi OP

If you start a thread about an elderly parent, you can trigger people's own issues and attitudes and sometimes get scolded for it.

I'm in a very similar situation to you, not with the Deputyship because I have Lasting Power of Attorney but in many of the other aspects. I'm sorry, I don't know anything further about Deputyships, PP have had more info.

You have done everything right. You have seen that your DM has had all the assessments needed and is going through the system as needed. You are doing this because you want to not because you have a statutory duty to, unlike all these other agencies.

You are very much taking your DM's interests into account, there's no such thing as perfect 'best interests', everything is a compromise. What is very much in your DM's best interest is having a sane and functioning daughter who can advocate in important circumstances and visit her, and in order to do that you need her to be somewhere you can visit without more stress than necessary. You have zero obligation to have her live near you either, and it seems where she currently lives is ideal because she's always lived there and other people could visit too and you yourself can get there, be less stressed by ease of travel and supportive friends in what would otherwise be a lonely situation. I do the same, and I wouldn't listen to random outside opinions on it. Everyone professionally involved with my DM is very supportive of me doing the same as you propose.

I have never had any professional be anything other than grateful for all the admin and money I have sorted out and for the arrangements I've made for my DM. No-one has ever asked me to prove what I am spending money on or making arrangements about. The only time any such thing would come into consideration is when my DM finally runs out of money, on a similar timescale to yours, so I keep decent accounts (there was a period when she had capacity to make broad financial decisions, she doesn't have much idea now). I'm responsible with my DM's money, I make my best judgements that spending on particular things will help her, by far the biggest cost, dwarfing all others, is the care home, and I don't worry about some auditor looking over my shoulder. I do my best to ensure the care home she lives in is fulfilling their role, and others who have a hand in her care. That's a lot. It would not be in my DM's interests for me to hand over POA to her solicitor, stop visiting, wash my hands. I could and no-one would want me to do any of that, so they're happy my needs are met too.

I would not hang on to the house, though, I would let it go when you're able. It's also possible as you know to get an attachment on the property to pay care fees, my DM's local council would have done this. The restrictions and pitfalls of letting, especially being a non-professional absentee landlord, could be very stressful. The income generated would be nowhere near what care costs and you'd likely have to do work to bring it up to regs, not to mention the paperwork, regs, maintenance and angst of bad tenants even if you're paying an agency. I would sell it and lock the money in the highest-interest account possible: interest rates are normalising higher than they used to be. You could get advice from a reputable IFA.

Good luck, get support from people who are on your side.

euff · 17/04/2023 16:58

You asked about timescales. It can be as little as 12 weeks from application to order in very straightforward simple cases where notifications are carried out quickly but that's very rare in my experience. Queries about Dols from the court and objections can stretch things out as well as backlogs.

If you need to access funds in the meantime contact your DM's bank. If it's NatWest they have a CoP team. They may allow release of funds to pay care costs direct to the provider and other necessary costs upon invoice.

Original poster
rhetorician · 17/04/2023 16:33

Nicklebox · 17/04/2023 15:23

My mother also had dementia and no POA so I had to be a deputy. Make sure you keep good records of any money you spend on your mother's behalf. There was a yearly report that i had to complete for my mum where i had to account for every penny spent.

Thanks - that's what I assumed was needed from the accompanying notes etc which make reference to yearly accounts and report, and also to a supervisor if you've not acted as a deputy before. It's good that these quite strong safeguards are in place.

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 17/04/2023 16:14

Nixer · 17/04/2023 14:48

Would the potential rent fully cover the care home fees? If not and if she doesn't have much other capital you need to be careful. You would need to give the tenant notice well before your mum is going to run out of funds but even if the tenant is in a rolling contract and you give them the 2 months notice there is no guarantee that they will actually leave in 2 months.

Yes. I think the rental option may be more trouble than it's worth. I might be better off selling the house and buying an annuity. And just keeping the capital in the bank until/in case she needs it

OP posts:
Nicklebox · 17/04/2023 15:23

My mother also had dementia and no POA so I had to be a deputy. Make sure you keep good records of any money you spend on your mother's behalf. There was a yearly report that i had to complete for my mum where i had to account for every penny spent.

Nixer · 17/04/2023 14:48

Would the potential rent fully cover the care home fees? If not and if she doesn't have much other capital you need to be careful. You would need to give the tenant notice well before your mum is going to run out of funds but even if the tenant is in a rolling contract and you give them the 2 months notice there is no guarantee that they will actually leave in 2 months.

SheilaFentiman · 17/04/2023 07:27

OP, I understand the guilt, my dad had to
have things “taken away” (driving license, letting him walk to the shops) when he didn’t know why and that’s a fraction of what you are feeling.

it sounds to me very much like you are acting in her best interests and you still have to balance the rest of your life, job etc.

good luck and I hope she can stay in the home where she is now.

Original poster
rhetorician · 17/04/2023 07:20

Yes key issue is that she no longer has capacity. But expresses a desire not to be in the care home, that she can cope (when she can't) and that she wants to go home. As you can imagine, having to go against her expressed wishes in order to act in her best interest feels pretty terrible. She cannot dress without help; she cannot prepare a meal; she cannot manage personal hygiene; she is not reliably continent; she is unable to recall new information. By the time she left her house she was wandering and distressed at night; kept losing her keys; could not turn on the tv, could not make a phone call. She clearly cannot stay at home.

I can look into moving her here - it does involves layers of complexity (for starters, she doesn't have a PRSI number - equivalent of NI number). Funding wise, the system here doesn't work if the key asset is not in the state (the fair deal scheme); health services are even more stretched etc etc.

The upshot is that there is no "right" answer. On balance, I think if the home she is currently is has a permanent place, that will be the best option. I then need to apply to court of protection for deputyship as she cannot now agree to POA in order to administer her finances to pay for her care, either via selling the house, or letting it, etc. Sin e

OP posts:
FatGirlSwim · 16/04/2023 23:54

OP, I’m so sorry that the thread has left you feeling shitty. It’s a no win situation and I think it sounds like you’re doing a brilliant job in difficult circumstances. It’s so hard when what a person wants is impossible.

I don’t know enough about the law to advise. It sounds like your dm no longer has capacity and so it’s too late for a PoA? My grandmother managed to get PoA in place when the GP said it was ‘borderline’ because the GP knew it would create endless problems not having that in place.

Does the place where your mum is currently living have a social worker who can help guide you through this process?

And whilst I don’t have enough experience to advise on the court of protection side, I’d seriously consider whether it’s in your mum’s best interests for you to move her to Ireland, where you will be able to make short, regular visits and oversee her care. Especially as you say she is unlikely to get any other visitors. Managing this from abroad is going to be extremely difficult and having her only relative close by might be the best thing you could do for her. She’s unlikely to leave the home much so sadly won’t know where she is very shortly.

TheSilveryPussycat · 16/04/2023 23:45

From the IMCA link

IMCAs are primarily intended to be a safeguard for people who do not have family or friends who can represent them. The MCA identifies this as having no -one other than paid staff with whom "it would be appropriate to consult". The Code of Practice 10.74 - 10.78 provides more information about how this decision can be made. For example, if someone has limited family contact or if family live some distance away an IMCA can be instructed.

So it seems this is not necessarily appropriate as you can represent your DM.

Is the nub of your problem that what she wants would not be safe for her?

As an aside, it is never too early to get POA set up for oneself - although it does feel weird doing so.

Original poster
rhetorician · 16/04/2023 23:14

I was hoping for support and guidance and now I just feel even more guilty and awful than I did when I started the thread.

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 16/04/2023 23:09

Quisquam · 16/04/2023 23:06

Read this - it explains more about IMCAs

https://www.scie.org.uk/mca/imca

Thank you: I'll look at that.

OP posts:
gogohmm · 16/04/2023 23:08

@Soontobe60

Dp is deputy of her disabled adult child, it was straightforward, no solicitor involved

gogohmm · 16/04/2023 23:06

It took around 2 months last year. Different circumstances but same process. On top of the application fee you have to pay an annual fee

Original poster
rhetorician · 16/04/2023 23:05

Quisquam · 16/04/2023 23:02

No, they are not. The local authority where DM is, should be able to provide an IMCA - they may well subcontract it out to an independent organisation like Voiceability or Pohrer. You need to ask the DOLs team to make a referral to whatever organisation DM’s local authority uses, for her to have an IMCA. The IMCA should seek to get DM’s views about where she wants to live, or what she wants; and then they produce a written report.

OK - I can look into that: I've no issue with doing that. But she has been asked repeatedly where she wants to live - she says she wants to go home, but she isn't able to manage at home even with help, and that's what the risk assessment says too.

OP posts:
Original poster
rhetorician · 16/04/2023 23:02

I seem to have inadvertently got into a terrible tangle over all of this through trying to ask some basic questions.

I only want to act in my mother's best interests - I would like nothing more than for her to be fully competent to remain at home in control of her own affairs. But that is not where we are sadly.

OP posts:
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