Siblings want to put mum in a home

“There's actually a term for this 'daughter from california syndrome' where a family member who hasn't been there day to day is surprised at the deterioration of their parent and challenges the care that has been given and may have unrealistic expectations of what is medically feasible. It feeds off guilt and denial and not necessarily what is right for the parent.”

yes, my American uncle was like this for my Nan, always making suggestions based on visiting once a year when obviously my Nan had rested up to have the most energy to see him etc (my Nan was a marvel, lived to over 100, but still needed help!)

This.

You need to stop looking at your sister as some sort of money grabbing cunt and focus on the fact your mother refuses to help herself SO she can stay at home. Your sister didn't hoof her out as soon as the house was finished and looking after an increasingly frail parent is bloody hard work. Do you all take a turn or do you just pour scorn on the lass?

What do you exactly want here? Your mother can't be left alone, what do you think should happen?

I think your muddling to different issues here:

• I can see that your sister has not behaved well
• but at the same time you seem to expect her to care for your mother on her own 24/7 while your mother is refusing help from carers or any device that would make it safer.

Your mother also needs to be reasonable. If she is not willing to go into a home she needs to accept carers and devices will need to be put in place.

The problem is also that this is your sister's home and your mother can't just insist that she wants to stay there.

So people who are saying ''she can't be forced into a home'' are forgetting that aspect of the problem. Your sister can very easily say to social services that she is no longer able to cope and that your mother needs to be placed in a home.

@Panjandrum123 I don’t think it will be a tax bill, if DM gifted the money 7 years ago, as that is outside the IHT timeframe. There may be a deprivation of assets claim, though (not a tax)

@Florencenightingalewasfab If there is no power of attorney in place, it might be worth finding out if there is a Deprivation of Liberty team who can talk to your mum. They will talk to her and the family to decide what safeguards need to be put in place. www.gov.uk/guidance/deprivation-of-liberty-orders

We had the DoLs team contact us for my mum, it caused ructions in the family because we put her in a home to keep her safe (dementia, wandering, confusion) and it was possible, on a good day for her to be plausible enough to try to leave. I was made her DoLs guardian.

also there are tax implications for your sister, so she could get a nasty bill at some point.

Even if you have power Of attorney, as long as your mum has mental capacity, she can decline the carers or refuse to let them in.

Agree with PP. your sis and other siblings aren’t forcing your mum into a home, your mum is refusing things such as a neck alarm which would enable her to continue as is for a while.

if this changes, your mum might be able to stay longer where she is, but you do get that sooner or later a care package and then a home are on the cards. That’s not your sister’s fault, it’s the aging process.

it is IHT that looks back 7 years, deprivation of assets has no time
limit. However, as the assets were used at least in part to house and feed your mum, this would be taken into account in any consideration. Your sister may be naive in thinking there is no claim though.

@Florencenightingalewasfab Your sister, irrespective of the legalities of who owns what, sounds to have done vastly more than her fair share of the heavy lifting over the past seven years in regard to providing care for your mother.

If your sister says she's no longer able to provide appropriate care for your mother without support, after seven years, I think the least you can do is respect that and work towards a solution.

The financial issues, as many pp's have already said, are immaterial at the moment, really.

As others have said sometimes even with the best will in the world older people are better off and safer in care than living with family. 24/7 care is unsustainable for a family member, especially if your mum is refusing assistance.

The only way to find out what is happening is to go down there yourself and talk to your mum. It might have reached the stage where what she wants just isn’t possible any more.

I’d let it go about the money. 7 years of caring is a long time. For reference my mum’s house sale will only yield enough to pay for 7 years in a care home.

I think you need urgent legal advice. If your mums still in hospital she will get a full assessment to ensure she is 'safe' to come home. Safe means not at significant risk.
Unless you're paying privately it's not up to the individual, let alone the family to decide they want to go into a care home or get carers in. This is done on a needs assessment. If your mum has sufficient mental capacity she can decline all help.

The problem comes with not knowing financial arrangements your mum and sister have. Who legally owns the annex? Is it classes as a separate dwelling (2 separate council tax accounts?) How long ago did your mums money transfer? I believe if you become 'state dependent' before 7 years of giving away money you could be deemed as having done it deliberately for financial reasons. It might be worth talking alone with your mum about power of attorney. This needs to be set up whilst she has full mental capacity.
I would also say dont assume your sister hasn't got her best interest at heart. Having your mum almost living with her and her family for the last few years isn't something to be sniffed at.

@Ponderingwindow I agree the sister is allowed to say she will not give any more care. The complicating factor is that in that situation normally an adult - her mum - can still decide to return to her home if she wishes, with or without the care. In this case the sister is saying the mum can not return to her home.

Around 7 ish years ago I think

I think 7 years needs to pass for assets not to be taxed if they are gifted. I reckon your sis waited 7 years so the assets could not be clawed back & used for care home fees.

I don't know enough about it all but it seems she has done you out of inheritance. Did your Mum go to help with childcare?

If you aren’t the one doing the day to day care, you don’t get a say in if it has become too much. Your sister is allowed to be done.

financially, are you even sure that your sister has taken your mother’s money. Just being given access doesn’t mean she is spending it on herself or that it has been commingled with her own finances. With elder care, the family member may simply be added to the account so they can do the senior’s shopping and pay the senior’s bills more easily.

@AllOutofEverything

The mother needs an alarm and a care package to continue living at home.

She is refusing an alarm and a care package. Therefore it is not safe for her to remain as her care needs are not being met.

In agreement that LA may say no room at the inn until all other avenues exhausted, so the Mum may shortly just have to accept carers/alarm.

Unfortunately, this acquiescence does not usually occur until they have a really bad fall and end up having bad breaks/getting burnt by lying in urine etc. Then they get scared and accept.

OP you don’t want your mother in that state. Try and convince her to take the care package etc. if she wants to avoid further trauma and to delay going into a home.

this

I see your sisters point

You're expecting her to look after your DM

She can't and quite frankly it takes up all her time to do so regardless of what was agreed before.

My DM and her siblings had this argument about their DM

The ones arguing for her to stay at home were of course the ones not having to look after her and they didn't want the expense of a home

@Robinni Everyone is assuming it is not safe for the mother to be home alone, but we have no idea of that at all. Even sister is not suggesting that. She is suggesting carers and a neck call alarm. She would be alone at home.

I think to be honest your sister has gone as far as she can go with caring for your Mum if your Mum is refusing carers in and sister isn’t able to be present 24/7.

It simply isn’t safe (said as someone who has cared for multiple elderly).

Your sister was good enough to take your Mum in for the time that she has been able to - I’m taking it you and the rest weren’t up for the job? But now that time has passed.

From what I can see it’s your Mum who instigated the move to your sisters and the necessary renovations. And it is your Mum again who is refusing carers to come in to facilitate the arrangement to continue.

There could be any number of planning regs that dictated the Granny flat could not progress as a two bed. Unless you are privy to what went on there, maybe stop jumping to conclusions.

Yes it’s unfair that your sister will benefit more than the rest of you when Mum passes away. But your mother dictated and continues to dictate all of this so ultimately you’re getting annoyed at the wrong person.

I agree that you need to speak to your Mum on her own-take a couple of days off and just show up.You need more than one day to really appreciate her current state of health though-it may be that what she says doesn’t gel with the reality, IYSWIM.

Also, get a referral to Social Services for an assessment. SS have been v. helpful with my Dad’s (85) needs.

Care package would be 2-4 visits per day. One hour approx £20-25 per hour but Social Services will try to get away with 15-30 minute visits, so max £50 per day, probably less.

And I know risk of falling is a real issue. But loads of people living at home alone are at risk of falling. It is why those neck call systems are so commonly used.

Unless she is assessed as needing to be in a home the state will not pay for that anyway. It sounds like she does not need to if her only real issue is being at risk of falling. So she will either have to return to where she was living or rent somewhere on her pension.

Where did I say it was cheaper? You said that a live in carer costs thousands and thousands a month. So does a care home.

There is a difference between a live-in carer and a care package. A care package will cost more because it will involve other services with larger overheads who will charge you more. A private live-in carer works out much cheaper. Can be as little as £900 a week if it's not a complicated client. And it's better quality of care because you are paying someone a decent wage directly, rather than having a company provide someone on £9 an hour.