Siblings want to put mum in a home

Agree with this 100%. I am currently watching my Mum having to look after her parent, not even full time and it is really tough. I help where I can but I have a job and a toddler and live 150 miles away. None of my mum’s siblings help, just treat my mum like an unpaid carer/personal assistant. That always seems to be the way, one or two siblings doing everything and the others just complaining.

@Florencenightingalewasfab

Are you volunteering to care for her?

This ten times over

Maybe you offer to take a week AL and stay with DM while your sis and her DH have some respite from caring responsibilities.

This will give you chance to see what caring needs she has.

7 years is the cut off usually for an outright gift. Not for a gift with reservation of benefit, perhaps where the donor lives rent free, or at less than market rent, in an extension built with the money she has “gifted”.

Well if your mum is refusing reasonable medical advice, your sister is quite right in saying she needs to go into a home. The lady has capacity. She can’t be moved into a care home against her will. She has the right to make “bad” decisions. What she doesn’t have the right to do is insist her family look after her.

If she is assessed by SS as not needing to be in a home, then they can force her home. Home though may be a privately rented flat that the mother has to pay for through her pension. If the sister effectively makes her mother homeless then the local authority will help her find a rented home. But people do not get put into residential homes just because they are homeless.

State do not usually pay for a residential home unless someone requires more than 4 visits a day by carers. She sounds unlikely to meet that threshold and if she says she does not want to go into a home this will be taken into account.

You sound resentful, it appears your sister been the sole carer for your mum for 7 years. She has tried to get your mother to engage with carers and medical professionals yet she is refusing? how is this your sister fault?

Also 7 years ago your mum had capacity and willingly gave money to your sister so she can live with her-again I do not see the issue here.

If your mum care needs cannot be met by your sister then she needs a adult social care assesment.

And the fact it is straight after seven years will make them more likely to see it in this way.

Fair point re the reservation. TBC if DM is over the IHT threshold, I guess!

I agree. Especially as I doubt she has been paying market rent to her daughter.

Yes it would be unless the Mum paid the sister a market rent which doesn’t sound like the case here.

The health if a friend’s father, carer for his wife, began to deteriorate badly after the age of 100. His children wanted both to go into a care home, but he steadfastly refused and also the help of carers. The GP referred the case to the Community Matron who assessed the parents needs and patiently explained to both parents what care they needed.

My friend is full of praise for the Matron’s handling of the situation and the father was admitted to a care home shortly after while the mother accepted the help of carers at home. The Community Matron seems to be a little known role - perhaps she could be involved with your case?

It might come under Gift with Reservation of Benefit, since DM has continued to live in the extension. In which case it would still be regarded as part of DM’s estate for IHT purposes. This is a closing of the loophole whereby people would sign over their house to their children while continuing to live in it.

Re deprivation of assets: a zealous LA would be interested in where the money came from to pay for the extension, and where the money from the sale of DM’s house had gone to

It sounds like your mum was very unwise. However, if it is true that she is refusing help offered and in an unsafe condition, maybe a nursing home is the right thing?
My own dmum is 83. Whilst she has capacity we have done a poa but more importantly have agreed the circumstances in which she will go into a home. It's where she has accepted maximum in home paid for care (with me doing shopping and social visits) and is not coping or is unsafe (eg dementia causes her to go wandering). I have agreed this because we both know thar she might feel differently at the time but this is what her rational self knows.

A care home could be that amount per week. But most aren’t. Similarly googling suppliers of live in care suggests live in care is typically between £1000 and £2000 a week.

You’re right that few people can afford this without cashing in the home they’re living in. And Councils are unlikely to pay since they pay well under £1000 per week for a care home place.

The other two siblings, who also haven't benefited from the sale of your mums original home, agree with your sister. You seem to be the only resentful one.

Is there a particular reason that you didn't take on your mum? Maybe move in with her, or buy a place between you?

Sorry if I’ve missed it but how long has your Mum lived with your sister? Your Mum refusing to wear an alarm (not onerous) sounds like she might not be the easiest to care for.

I have had a similar situation in my family. My aunt moved her and her young family in to my grandmas house and bought it off her for a reduced price to care for her. She cared for her for years and she was not an easy woman to deal with. In the end she really needed specialist care and had to go into a home. My aunt of course kept the house, she had cared for her tirelessly for years with little help from her siblings. The only person who begrudged her it was the sibling that lived hundreds of miles away and had no idea how difficult it was caring for my grandma by then.

I think your sister was sly with the extension (unless it was a planning issue) but I think you are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to care for an elderly person as they decline. Even more so if they are very stubborn, show signs of dementia.

And I do think it sounds like you are more bitter about your sister having a big house than your mum.

Well if your mum is refusing reasonable medical advice, your sister is quite right in saying she needs to go into a home. Her safety should be everyone's priority. Your mum can't have it both ways. Maybe spend time with her, explaining that if she doesn't want to go into a home she really needs to accept the safety interventions. It's an utterly reasonable compromise. My partner has his mum living with him. Even then she wears an alarm round her neck in case she falls. And thank goodness she does because she fell a few weeks ago when he was in a different part of the house. He wouldn't have known for hours otherwise. Your mother needs to start being reasonable.

I really feel for you. My sister and BIL fleeced my mother for years. She's passed away now and of course all her assets/money have mysteriously disappeared. Will was changed and they had full control without any of the siblings being told. Sister and BIL put up a brick wall and refused to discuss with anyone. Some people have no shame.

How long has your mum been unwell?

7 years is the cut off usually. What was the plan anyway as soon as your mum gave your sister the money there was no inheritance. So it seems you are happy to have no inheritance aslong as your sister does l caring needs and finds her poor mother dead one day otherwise if she has to go in a home which is what is best for your mother possibly you think that's unfair on you

Your sister has the brunt of the care and if it's been years then surely she has 'earned' that 'money' . Speaking from my own personal experience it is hell

Insane idea ask your sister to swop houses and you become the carer

I and my brother also have full access to our mum's bank account. We only use it on her behalf, in her interests, or at her request (if she wants to send a gift to someone, say).
Our use of it is entirely transparent. We each ask the other to glance at it regularly to ensure that we are each comfortable with the transactions that have been made by the other.

It would be good for your sister to provide basic care, but this situation sounds like she needs a professional carer

I do feel unless you help her yourself then I would think it is a little unfair you commenting though

So was your Mum in her early 70's when she gave your Sister and BIL full access to her bank account ? Did she ever say why she did that ? or did they get POA and thought it would be sensible to be able to have access if they needed it in the future ?

Depending on if your Mum has any savings at all or pensions, she may still have to pay towards any care package. If she is refusing to have carers/a lifeline pendant/use a home nebuliser, I can understand why your Sister is suggesting residential care at this point.

I think it's interesting that your other siblings - who (unlike your sister) - don't stand to gain - agree that your mother would be better in a care home. You portray them all as money-grabbing but, if your mother still has any assets, these will have to be spent on care home fees. So what do you think their motive is?

Mixing up two things here. 7 years is the limit for IHT (that's irrelevant here as you measure from time of death and the mother has not died). There is no limit for deprivation of assets cases re care home fees. However, deprivation of assets is only a problem where assets have been spent or given away with a view to avoiding fees- that's not what has happened here. I feel terribly sorry for the sister, who has cared for her mother for 7 years and is now having poorly-informed strangers making all sorts of unfounded claims against her.

OP, I'd suggest you try to separate your feelings about the money from your thoughts about your mother's ongoing needs. She has been told by the doctor that she needs to wear an alarm, she also needs carers, and she is refusing both. Clearly your sister cannot become a full time carer so something is going to have to change. The fact that the intention was that having the annex would avoid a home is neither here nor there- nobody knows what someone's care needs are going to be in future.

I'd really recommend that you try to emphasise with your sister's position a little more and try to work out together how your mother's needs can be met. That may be that she has to agree to the alarm and carers, it may be more than that. You're massively underestimating what your sister has taken on in having your mother live with her. If I were in your sister's shoes and a relative- who has done nothing towards care- turned up demanding impossible things and grumbling about her inheritance, I'd hit the fucking roof.