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Elderly parents
Original poster

Parent ignoring care home fees and POA

34 replies

MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:04

I wonder if anyone has any information about what will happen in a situation where an elderly parent has gone into a care home but they are ignoring anything to do with the finances?
The situation is that mum owns a house and therefore would be classed as self-funding but she won’t give me Power of Attorney to sort out the sale of the house to fund the care. She is of sound mind.
She has been in the care home for 4 months now so the 12 week disregard has well passed and she has had two letters from the local authority which as far as I can tell ( I live 100s of miles away) are asking her about paying fees.

There is a horrible situation too where my brother and his wife have used all her money in her bank accounts when she first became ill and actually got her in debt. They had access to her house whilst she was in hospital but did not have permission to use her cards. The carehome were informed and now know there is a safeguarding issue with my brother the police have been informed but she won’t speak to them. So savings that could have been used to pay care homes for 1 or 2 years have gone. Me and my Husband did what we could to deal with banks and sort out a payment plan for the debts but now my mother will not give me POA to sort anything else out which makes things impossible ( from my point of view) with care home fees. She seems to think that me having financial POA would not be fair to my brother, even though my brother went behind her and my back and drained all her savings from her accounts! I have tried to explain that POA would an admin task for dealing with finances and would be under legal scrutiny and all to benefit her but she doesn’t want to do it.

So, what is the Local authority likely to do when she just ignores letters about fees? What sort of action can they take? Will they take action against her in any way? I am expecting in a few months that she will contact me in a panic about some nasty letter or legal stuff which I can’t help her with as I won’t have POA.

OP posts:
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Ohmylovejune · 14/08/2023 18:53

For a few pounds you can get a land registry copy of ownership from the website. I think.its about £3.

They are a bit behind - we had a genuine transfer sent in in June and we still haven't had confirmation it's been registered but if it was done a while ago it should show.

summerisontheway · 14/08/2023 18:47

You can act for her and get her to sign paperwork if she is still of sound mind. Does she realise she needs to sell her house to pay for her care or she will be evicted? If not maybe she is not of quite such sound mind as you think.
I would try to deal with the immediate crisis by showing her what she needs to do and worry about POA for further down the line if necessary. Act as her secretary basically but you decide on what is appropriate.
Also a sale could take some time so maybe the council will have a process for this where they take a charge on the house to reclaim what they have paid out once a sale does go through.
She can't bury her head in the sand forever.

BorgQueen · 14/08/2023 14:49

Zombie thread 🙄

Blankspace4 · 14/08/2023 08:26

This is quite a dated thread that looks to have been re activated, what happened in the end OP?

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 14/08/2023 08:23

The trouble is, OP, that when someone is deemed to have capacity and won’t make a complaint, the police’s hands are tied. We soon found this after discovering that an elderly neighbour had been scammed out of a huge amount of money - but she wouldn’t have it - the scammers were ‘so nice’ on the phone! - her £1m ‘lottery prize’ money would be arriving any day!

Unfortunately the law takes the view that unless you’ve already been deemed to have lost capacity, you are free to throw your money away as you wish.

Having said that, local authorities AFAIK are very hot on reclaiming their dues, even if they have to wait quite a while for legalities until the house can be sold. And if there’s been deprivation of assets, they’ll be hot on that, too. They can and do investigate very fully.

TheHomeEdit · 14/08/2023 00:17

Does she not agree to selling the house or just not giving you POA? If she’s happy for the sale to go ahead then you can deal with the main aspects of that on her behalf just by getting her to give permission to the solicitor and estate agent to do that. I’m currently in the process of selling my mothers house after she has moved into sheltered housing. She’s physically frail and not as mentally sharp as she was - poor memory and struggles with sequencing more complex tasks but still able to make decisions if the options are presented in a clear way. I guess it works for us because there has been no suggestion that anyone has taken her money and I know my brother trusts me to do the right thing.

Mosaic123 · 13/08/2023 23:38

You can check online via the Land Registry website who owns the house.

Alinino124 · 13/08/2023 20:28

It’s not complicated at all. You can do it online, pay approx £80 get it signed and witnessed and that’s it. Nothing complicated about that.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 21:03

TokyoTen · 22/05/2022 20:52

Gosh OP that is shocking. Ha e you consulted a solicitor just to ensure you ha e had legal advice? However if your mum won't do anything I think ultimately the police can do nothing.

No solicitor no. We don't have a great deal of money and we did everything we could think of without mum wanting to co-operate with police. We sorted out a payment plan with the bank and told them what happened and made sure the care-home knew about my mum being vulnerable to financial abuse from her son and DIL. They had a meeting involving care home management so at least we know she should be safe in there from now on.

OP posts:
TokyoTen · 22/05/2022 20:52

Gosh OP that is shocking. Ha e you consulted a solicitor just to ensure you ha e had legal advice? However if your mum won't do anything I think ultimately the police can do nothing.

autienotnaughty · 22/05/2022 20:48

The care home will have a policy for this. A lot of vulnerable people don't have a power of attorney in place. I think (but not 100% sure) that care home had a stake in my grandmother's house so when she died her children sold it and the care home got paid first. But she was end of life so that might have made a difference.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:46

MiniatureHotdog · 22/05/2022 20:22

And yes, surely if she doesn't go to the police then the money she did have will be regarded as deprivation of assets? (ie as if she gave your brother permission to take it)

Yes that is another fear I have. It's complicated as on some occasions I think she agreed to give him money but there are definitely occasions where my brother and his wife bought luxury items / holidays without her permission whilst she was in hospital. I have messages from mum where she was shocked and dismayed at these things.

OP posts:
Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:43

stanfi · 22/05/2022 20:20

Has your brother already got her sign anything? Is she refusing to give you access because his fraud is bigger than you've already discovered?

This thought had occurred to me, that he might have got the house signed over or even taken out more loans and credit in her name. Unfortunately we can't get access to her credit history without certain details from her. If he has ownership of the house then I don't see what I could do apart from wait for the inevitable and for him to be found out when fees need to be recouped.

OP posts:
Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:40

A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:33

Does she understand that he has stolen from her?

Yes but he appears to be the golden child and she thinks he should be treated with kid gloves for some reason. There is a strange preoccupation with the shame of it all and people 'not finding out' from my mum. I told her exactly how much he and his horrible wife took but she is protective of them. I think it has elements of coercive control myself but police have said they can do very little, even though there is evidence of electricity bills etc paid for at their address and holidays when she is bedbound, services to their address. So that's an 85 year old disabled lady, unable to walk and get out of bed stolen from and nothing happens..I would love the police to do something but how could I get them to when she won't make a statement?

OP posts:
SafeguardingSocialWorker · 22/05/2022 20:40

stanfi · 22/05/2022 20:20

Has your brother already got her sign anything? Is she refusing to give you access because his fraud is bigger than you've already discovered?

sadly from experience this was my first thought also.

Thesefeetaremadeforwalking · 22/05/2022 20:36

I agree with what others have said, in that if your mother is deemed to be competent there isn't anything you can do.

Sorry OP x

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:35

rwalker · 22/05/2022 20:26

You don't need to do anything local authority will deal . It might be too late to get PA as they have to be of sound mind and the solicitor may judge she's not.
local authority will put a charge against the house and when they die recover money.

As for your brother TBH i'm with him your parents as penalised for being responsible . If they had pissed all there money away the local authority pay if you are careful and responsible support yourself you get fuck all.
Having money is no benefit to your parens the local auth will make they pay till the point of bankruptcy then step in if you have no money they pay .

You might sympathise about the authorities now not getting the money but my brother's actions had a huge effect psychologically on my mum. That is not something that should be swept under the carpet IMO, it's abuse. My mum had also wanted to leave money to me and her grandchildren but that is not going to happen now, thanks to my lovely brother!

OP posts:
A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:33

Does she understand that he has stolen from her?

A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:32

POA is actually quite complicated to set up and (I don't want to put you off) not a walk in the park. This is to protect the vulnerable from thieving bastards like your brother. Sorry but he needs to be pursued.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:32

A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:30

Your brother stealing money from your mother is a police matter! seriously. He didn't have POA at the time and should be prosecuted.

Yes, just what I think myself but police have said they can do nothing because my mum won't speak to them.

OP posts:
A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:30

Your brother stealing money from your mother is a police matter! seriously. He didn't have POA at the time and should be prosecuted.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:30

Whatevergetsyouthroughthenight · 22/05/2022 20:24

If your Mum’s genuine objection is excluding your brother, you can have joint POA where both of you have to sign all documents, so you can prevent your brother doing anything dodgy and satisfy your Mum.
Having said that, it sounds like she’s in denial (my Mum was the same). I can’t see a situation where the local authority will turn your Mum out, I expect that they will put a charge on the house and take the money (with interest) after your Mum has gone. If it puts your mind at rest, try speaking to the local authority about what their policy is in this situation, it can’t be the first time. Any data protection could be got around by asking them about policies not about your Mum in particular.
Most local authorities have a scheme where you can take out a loan with them against the value of the house repayable on death. The interest rate is limited by law I believe. This would (if your Mum was willing) give you the ability to rent out the house and get some income to help repay debt/pay for the care home fees.
Good luck, I know how stressful is.

Thankyou. I would not want to involve my brother as am shocked at his dishonesty and lack of morals to be honest. He has also virtually disappeared
( no phone contact, no reply to emails etc not a single visit to mum) since the debt on the accounts came to light, so he would be utterly useless at helping my mum and a hindrance I'm sure to any legal decisions. If he had at least owned up and said he had done something wrong that would be a start but he has cut contact even with his mum, which is terribly sad and cowardly.

OP posts:
rwalker · 22/05/2022 20:26

You don't need to do anything local authority will deal . It might be too late to get PA as they have to be of sound mind and the solicitor may judge she's not.
local authority will put a charge against the house and when they die recover money.

As for your brother TBH i'm with him your parents as penalised for being responsible . If they had pissed all there money away the local authority pay if you are careful and responsible support yourself you get fuck all.
Having money is no benefit to your parens the local auth will make they pay till the point of bankruptcy then step in if you have no money they pay .

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:24

@SafeguardingSocialWorker
Thanks for that, it seems like good info.

OP posts:
Whatevergetsyouthroughthenight · 22/05/2022 20:24

If your Mum’s genuine objection is excluding your brother, you can have joint POA where both of you have to sign all documents, so you can prevent your brother doing anything dodgy and satisfy your Mum.
Having said that, it sounds like she’s in denial (my Mum was the same). I can’t see a situation where the local authority will turn your Mum out, I expect that they will put a charge on the house and take the money (with interest) after your Mum has gone. If it puts your mind at rest, try speaking to the local authority about what their policy is in this situation, it can’t be the first time. Any data protection could be got around by asking them about policies not about your Mum in particular.
Most local authorities have a scheme where you can take out a loan with them against the value of the house repayable on death. The interest rate is limited by law I believe. This would (if your Mum was willing) give you the ability to rent out the house and get some income to help repay debt/pay for the care home fees.
Good luck, I know how stressful is.

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