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Elderly parents

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Original poster

To have told my dad he’s a tight arse.

90 replies

Twoweekcruise · 13/12/2021 12:18

My parents are 80. My mum sadly has Alzheimer’s and other health issues. My dad is in good health.
They are both lucky in the sense that his two daughters (myself and younger dsis) both live within walking distance from them.
We help out as much as possible. My sister works full time and I, part time. My sister pops in and cleans for my parents once a week. I pop in most days, between dsis and I we do their washing. I organise all of mums hospital and doctors appointments, I wash and dry mums hair, cut and polish her nails, change and make their beds, take mum to a day centre once a week and generally keep a check on them as dad isn’t too good at most of these things (and says they aren’t yet ‘ready’ for carers or outside help!).
Before I carry on and for clarity, my parents are not hard up for money. Mum inherited several years ago from her parents and dad took it upon himself to invest ‘their’ money. They have many thousands (enough to buy a family home) in the bank. They do very little with their lives and their outs-goings are small.p, they spend little and of course that’s totally up to them!
Yesterday my 16 year old son and I visited nan and grandad (whilst I cut and painted my mums nails) and ds decided to stay after I left. My dsis was there, she was cleaning their house. She cleaned from 1-6pm. Ds swept their driveway and concreted an area in the back garden for grandad.
When ds returned he said my dad had given him £10 and my dsis £20 for their help.
I messaged my sister and asked if he gave her that amount each week and she said yes but she doesn’t do it for the money. I said that’s not the point. She is a professional cleaner and charges £15 per hour.
I’ve told him today that isn’t on, he should pay her more, ffs she was cleaning for 5 bloody hours for a measly £20.
AIBU to think he should step up and pay her more, seeing that it’s him not pulling his weight and cleaning his own bloody house, it’s minging.

OP posts:
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Restzol · 15/12/2021 22:26

@Twoweekcruise as a pp said, so many sanctimonious comments - clearly there are living saints amongst us. My personal view is that if helping a parent stops you earning elsewhere then that’s a reason for accepting payment. However, do you think it is also about feeling appreciated? Every article of food or consumer goods my parent has had in the past 3 years has been brought in by me along with a long list of other jobs I do. I’m not walking distance either. It takes a full day of every weekend, rules out trips away and impacts on my young son. I work FT and earn a pretty decent wage so fortunately I’m not desperate for money but in the supermarket I visit every week for them I do sometimes think, would it be so hard for my parent to occasionally tell me to choose some wine for myself or some chocs? Or to offer to pay for something for my son? I’m
Not talking me quaffing wine from a limited pension btw, a gesture would be well within their means. Part of my ill feeling is that I have a sibling who does little to nothing. My parent likes to talk about how they have always treated us equally. Yes, but not equitably.

On a more practical note, attendance allowance can be a Trojan horse to get some
paid care in. It is the only non-means tested benefit. I claimed on my parents behalf and presented it as ‘free money’ that HAD to be spent on care. That way I got a little gardening help, and some limited home help in. It is expensive- £25-£30 per hour but even a few hours has helped. Be aware though that you swop your blue collar role as
cleaner for the white collar role of manager - getting help in generally means you having to manage it including the parental moans, complaints.

EarlyCalenderCh0c0 · 15/12/2021 11:40

An employed cleaner also allows the family to go on holiday or sick too

EarlyCalenderCh0c0 · 15/12/2021 11:39

My elderly relative has a cleaner

When we employed the cleaner, we requested 60% socialising & 40% cleaning & this has worked out well

MereDintofPandiculation · 15/12/2021 09:59

One argument you can try is keeping them out of a care home for as long as possible. Failure to accept care when needed may mean care home comes earlier

RantyAunty · 14/12/2021 12:20

@HyacynthBucket

What helped with getting my late DM to accept help in the end, was that someone my DB knew recommended a lovely person who would come and do some cleaning and gardening twice a week. It was the personal connection that led to her accepting it - and the fact that the girl who came was absolutely lovely and spent time with my DM. She would bring her packed lunch and eat it with DM when she had her lunch. They became friends, and she was so reliable and good to have around, company for DM as well as help.
I like this idea too. Someone who could provide a bit of companionship in addition to the chores.

Does you dad get many visitors?

Original poster
Twoweekcruise · 14/12/2021 11:58

@CrimbleCrumble1

Twoweekcruise I can fully sympathise and empathise with your situation. My DM refuses any outside care from carers etc so looking after her has fallen to my sibling and I. We visit her every other day despite having our own health and other issues. I always swore blind I would never get myself in this situation but it crept up on me. I really feel for you and your sister.
Thank you, it really does creep up on you. It’s not as cut and dried as some MN members seem to believe it to be.
OP posts:
flippertyop · 13/12/2021 19:45

I think he should pay for a cleaner. I wouldn't expect my parents to pay for help but if it was cleaning 5 hours a week a wouldn't expect to be doing that either. Best you detach yourselves from it. It's an issue because that's your sisters job so it muddies the water - but 5 hours cleaning is a bit much

GeorgiaGirl52 · 13/12/2021 17:51

@WhatATimeToBeAlive

To be honest I wouldn't expect my parents to pay me for helping them out, I would just do it for them whatever their financial situation.
Totally agree. They are your parents.
HyacynthBucket · 13/12/2021 17:34

What helped with getting my late DM to accept help in the end, was that someone my DB knew recommended a lovely person who would come and do some cleaning and gardening twice a week. It was the personal connection that led to her accepting it - and the fact that the girl who came was absolutely lovely and spent time with my DM. She would bring her packed lunch and eat it with DM when she had her lunch. They became friends, and she was so reliable and good to have around, company for DM as well as help.

backtolifebacktoreality · 13/12/2021 17:02

My elderly mum pays a cleaner for a couple of hours a fortnight.

Maybe you should get an independent cleaner for your parents.

woodhill · 13/12/2021 16:59

I think 5 hours is too much

TheOccupier · 13/12/2021 16:56

Wow. I assume you've already reimbursed your parents for all the costs they incurred in raising you? If not, why not?

Pippa12 · 13/12/2021 16:54

It can be really tough caring for parents, it takes up a lot of time and can be incredibly draining.

I wouldn’t ever accept financial reward for it tho, I just see it as my duty as a daughter. I’m sure they found me incredibly time consuming, emotionally draining and expensive during my childhood.

But if you feel it’s necessary to charge for your services I’d withdraw all offers of help and wait for social services to get involved.

Akire · 13/12/2021 16:53

The issue is times are hard for everyone if you are working as a cleaner for £15 an hour life isn’t going be amazing. If it was quick half hour once a week running hoover over when you popped in for cup of tea that’s one thing but 5h is half a working week a month. That’s a lot of time when you could be working and earning.

Very different if they had basic pension and not a penny to their name but yes would feel difficult for me too.

I would be tempted to suggest popping in for a hour to do basic wipe of kitchen and bathroom but anything else they need get cleaner in as you need to be working as many hours as you can.

I’m a disabled adult had to have carers in my. 30s yes it’s an adjustment but you crack on plenty of people pay for cleaners, ironing ladies, gardeners or window cleaners it’s not anything unusually. Point blanking refusing paid help while also expecting family to provide for free not on. They can take strain of dogsbody work and you can do hospital and managing things that’s harder get a paid carer to do.

CrimbleCrumble1 · 13/12/2021 16:51

Twoweekcruise I can fully sympathise and empathise with your situation. My DM refuses any outside care from carers etc so looking after her has fallen to my sibling and I. We visit her every other day despite having our own health and other issues. I always swore blind I would never get myself in this situation but it crept up on me.
I really feel for you and your sister.

Coffeepants · 13/12/2021 16:49

It was a response to post above that said children don’t ask to be born so parents are expected to provide for them. But that the reverse of taking care of aging parents doesn’t necessarily apply.

woodhill · 13/12/2021 16:45

@Coffeepants

But also they do charge their adult children rent Hmm
So even if you do loads for them, they still charge rent if you live in to help them?
maxelly · 13/12/2021 16:43

@Twoweekcruise

We don’t ‘expect’ a financial reward and never have done, it’s just that my dad expects help and doesn’t appear to understand how much it actually takes it out of us, the worry and stress. My dad will FaceTime or ring me most days stressing over something or other and asking for my help and of course I do it because I love my parents, I see how much he struggles with mums diagnosis. I have tried to get him help. However, if either of us take a step back, which we have tried many times then things just do not get done. I have had him stressing because mum has no underwear or there are no fresh duvet covers only to find the dirty linen basket is brim full. I have said to him ‘why aren’t you doing the laundry dad, it’s a pretty simple task’ and he just threw his hands in the air with a ‘I can’t remember to do everything!’ I realise just how much my mum actually did until her dementia set in. Absolutely, they need additional help but it gets refused. Dad refuses to except they need it, he would rather be down the shed than do housework. If it’s suggested to mum she breaks down and says if someone comes into her home she would rather be dead! I have arranged for social services to come and do a needs assessment but he keeps cancelling it saying perhaps in a few months, it’s early days yet. It’s such a dilemma, we help because we can not see our parents live in squalor. We help because we love them and watching them struggle with Alzheimer’s is beyond heartbreaking. We do not ask for any money but it would be nice for it to be offered once in a while to feel appreciated. My dad just doesn’t seem to see what we do for them, he really is blind to it. If I were in the same position as my dad I know for a fact that I would show my appreciation with financial reward, regardless wether they expect it or not but that’s me, I’m generous with my time and money, many people are not. I have just spent the afternoon taking mum out because I wanted to and because dad needed a few hours to himself, when we got back I said I needed to get back to my dc and he said ‘You do far too much for those kids!!’ He doesn’t see that I now have a set of ‘other’ kids to look after too.
You see this is so telling, you are really holding out for your Dad to 'see' and appreciate everything you do but it just doesn't sound like he will. I'm sorry. Armchair psychology incoming but it sounds as though he's had one woman do everything for him all his adult life and now he has another two doing it now his wife is incapacitated (my Dad was exactly the same), it's called 'learned helplessness'. You can say it's the way he was brought up, you can call him a selfish git or worse names, you can cry and rage at the unfairness but ultimately I doubt it will make a difference. If it helps I don't think it's that he doesn't care about you or love his wife and want to look after her, I really think men of this generation can get 'stuck', the way they were taught to show love and care was by providing financially and being 'strong' and 'stable' i.e. by showing minimal emotion except occasional angry outbursts, and being stoic in the face of difficulties (Robert Webb is very good on this in his semi-autobiography how to be a boy), and so faced with this sort of situation they can seem very shut down and disengaged from it.

I honestly would just try (I know it's hard) to put aside the emotion and focus in an unemotional way on the practicalities. Getting your parents to accept some help in whatever way is the thinnest end of the wedge would be what I'd do, I too faced huge opposition to any kind of SS involvement (stated reason = 'they'll put your mother in a home', I think real reason more complex and to do with shame and fear of the state interfering etc) but my parents did eventually accept a cleaner, gardener etc when told very bluntly that their home was getting to be uninhabitable and actively dangerous for mum so it was this or move to sheltered housing. Similarly the trigger for accepting someone to help with the gardening was when it apparently got too dangerous for their beloved pets to go out in, never mind their equally beloved DGC had been out there for years merrily playing Hmm. Slow trickle of more and more help being accepted got them used to the idea of having people around and spending money on it, and eventually they got very fond of their cleaner/helper and gardener and increased their hours of their own accord...

Good luck OP, really hope you sort it!

MNHQ
JoMumsnet · 13/12/2021 16:42

We're moving this thread to our Elderly Parents topic at the OP's request.

Kisskiss · 13/12/2021 16:37

I think OPs dad is putting too
much stress on his daughters.. I’m all for helping one’s parents but in this situation, they need to employ a carer and a cleaner and they can afford it, so they should. Frankly the time spent together is precious and having your daughter in 5-6 hours every week as your skivvy is a bit pointless

Original poster
Twoweekcruise · 13/12/2021 16:36

@countrygirl99

OP head on over to The Cockroach Café on the elderly parents board. You will find understanding ears there.
Thank you, I will do that.
OP posts:
Original poster
Twoweekcruise · 13/12/2021 16:35

@CrimbleCrumble1

The thing is care for parents creeps up, the OP and her sister probably didn’t volunteer to do what they are now doing. What was once possibly a quick weekly visit turns into a daily visit or the five hour cleaning visit. I’ve seen this happen numerous times despite the elderly parents claiming attendance allowance and often carers allowance.
100% this is exactly what happened. Thank you.
OP posts:
lovemelongtime · 13/12/2021 16:34

I think you need to pull back a little back onthe practical help (you and DSIS) and offer to engage a cleaner for your dad (at his cost obvs). You will need to do so much for them to support in other ways that you need to enlist help where you can now.

Original poster
Twoweekcruise · 13/12/2021 16:31

We don’t ‘expect’ a financial reward and never have done, it’s just that my dad expects help and doesn’t appear to understand how much it actually takes it out of us, the worry and stress.
My dad will FaceTime or ring me most days stressing over something or other and asking for my help and of course I do it because I love my parents, I see how much he struggles with mums diagnosis. I have tried to get him help.
However, if either of us take a step back, which we have tried many times then things just do not get done. I have had him stressing because mum has no underwear or there are no fresh duvet covers only to find the dirty linen basket is brim full. I have said to him ‘why aren’t you doing the laundry dad, it’s a pretty simple task’ and he just threw his hands in the air with a ‘I can’t remember to do everything!’ I realise just how much my mum actually did until her dementia set in.
Absolutely, they need additional help but it gets refused. Dad refuses to except they need it, he would rather be down the shed than do housework. If it’s suggested to mum she breaks down and says if someone comes into her home she would rather be dead! I have arranged for social services to come and do a needs assessment but he keeps cancelling it saying perhaps in a few months, it’s early days yet.
It’s such a dilemma, we help because we can not see our parents live in squalor. We help because we love them and watching them struggle with Alzheimer’s is beyond heartbreaking.
We do not ask for any money but it would be nice for it to be offered once in a while to feel appreciated. My dad just doesn’t seem to see what we do for them, he really is blind to it.
If I were in the same position as my dad I know for a fact that I would show my appreciation with financial reward, regardless wether they expect it or not but that’s me, I’m generous with my time and money, many people are not.
I have just spent the afternoon taking mum out because I wanted to and because dad needed a few hours to himself, when we got back I said I needed to get back to my dc and he said ‘You do far too much for those kids!!’ He doesn’t see that I now have a set of ‘other’ kids to look after too.

OP posts:
maxelly · 13/12/2021 16:28

I think the money is a red herring here and you're getting a lot of stick for it (of course, you have posted on AIBU, would recommend elderly parents in future for a gentler time Grin ), but in reality this is about communication and boundaries. Of course your Dad was surprised when (to him) out of the blue you suggested he should be paying your sister going rates when as far as he knows (and you say yourself) she helps them 'out of love'! Of course they don't think they need outside help, they have you at their beck and call and you are happy to do so (so far as they know)!

Awkward and un-British though it is, you need to have a proper sit down conversation with him about how much help you and sister can realistically offer (and if you need to be paid for that time, how much) and what they are going to need to start paying for themselves. It's no good silently seething and waiting for him to realise this of his own accord, trust me I've been there and it will never happen. This isn't about putting your mum into a home and washing your hands of responsibility, quite the reverse, people usually manage best at home for longest where a sensible system of support including family help is put in place before family run themselves into the ground or a crisis occurs and this is only possible where everyone is able to have a sensible, open, non-blamey and guilt-trippy discussion about it. I know that's sometimes easier said than done and elderly people can be reluctant to admit how much help they actually need or to accept 'strangers' in the home but again they don't have to leap straight to full-on personal care, just having a cleaner, gardener, handy man or even taxi driver or a laundry service (for the latter ones they wouldn't even have to let someone past the front door) is an easy way to get used to accepting help and would massively ease the burden on you, so I think you really need to get them onto this idea now. Age concern have some really good services including vetted cleaners etc, so maybe a chat with them would help. If your dad starts on about your inheritance and not wanting to spend all his money I would counter with the idea that you would many times over prefer to enjoy the time you are able to spend together with them both, actually be able to spend time doing enjoyable things, maybe take them out or just sit and chat etc rather than having to be run off your feet with chores now and then have the money when they're gone...