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Elderly parents

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Power of attorney and spending money

108 replies

Siriisatwat · 19/11/2021 19:17

Hi,

I’m in a bit of a state at the mo, my dad is in hospital. He clearly has some form of dementia but so far hasn’t been assessed (he lived 3 hours from me until I brought him to stay here a few weeks ago so I could help him).

He’s had quite a rapid decline over the last week.

He’s only got two changes of clothes with him. I cannot afford the petrol or time to do a six hour round trip to pick him up more. And to be honest, he’s lost a lot a weight in the last few months so all his clothes are hanging off him and he doesn’t like spending money so all those now too
big clothes are years old.

I’ve been trying to take him shopping but he will not spend a penny, he’s always been tight. I finally managed to get him to buy some t shirts last week but the next day he made me return them as he wanted his money back.

I have power of attorney and I have his wallet here.

Would I be able to go and buy him some clothes with his card?

I don’t have the money myself to get any for him so that’s not an option, I would have to
use his account.

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Siriisatwat · 21/11/2021 11:41

And his own “home” is 3 hours away.

He doesn’t have a GP there anymore - the one here fully registered him, not just temp as it was clear he needed help. First dr I spoke to seemed good - the one they sent out later that day? She as the one who asked if I could just lock him in a room and kept saying “I’m not sure why I’m here”.

So he would be dumped 3 hours away with no care.

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Siriisatwat · 21/11/2021 11:24

Last time they were so desparate to get rid of him, they stuck him in a taxi they have a contract with and sent him back with a commode.

No, he’s not sure of this address, he’s only ever visited a few times (we’ve only lived in this area here 18 months) and he doesn’t know this area at all.

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Akire · 21/11/2021 11:21

Do you think he will remember where he lives? I’ve been on hospital transport where some old confused lady was trying to be dropped off. She didn’t have or couldn’t find her keys and even though driver had her address she was very distressed as according to her she lived miles away. If she had keys maybe they just let her in regardless but in end everyone on bus ended up back at hospital trying find a ward take her as out patients was closed for the day. Or are they expecting you to collect on discharge?

Siriisatwat · 21/11/2021 11:17

Plus, we move house on wednesday. We are going to stay with my in laws from tomorrow while dh takes everything apart. So there’s nowhere for him to come back to.

And my new house isn’t suitable for him, there is no separate room downstairs for him to sleep in. He can’t have a bed and a commode in the same room the children are in all day.

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Siriisatwat · 21/11/2021 11:10

Oh I know, I’ve made it clear he cannot come back here.

And that he needs an assessment into his cognitive state.

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ancientgran · 21/11/2021 11:09

I feel so sorry for you. I was in the same situation with an elderly relative, I ended up on a cardiac ward with the stress. Her GP was phoning me as I was being admitted demanding I do this that and the other. When I got home 5 days later I was in the house for less than half an hour and they were on the phone again. The stress is hard to understand unless you have been through it yourself.

In the end we engaged a private social worker who did a proper assessment, found an excellent home and got her admitted. The holdup was getting the DOLS assessment but the home did a brilliant job of distracting her until they had the order.

I couldn't get social services to help, I even told them I was going to reject the POA and leave them to it. Their response was they'd cancel her carers, that she was paying, and use a company they had a contract with. I said it was unfair as she knew them and they knew her and as she was paying she should have who she wanted. They just said if it was so important to me I had to carry on organising it myself and not cancel the POA. I don't swear but on this occasion I will say they were absolute bastards about it all.

Don't let them discharge him to you, he doesn't live there, it isn't his home they need to sort out some respite while things get sorted out.

Good luck.

KittenCatcher · 21/11/2021 11:08

I usually try wnd work with my colleagues but with something like this I would just refuse to get involved, do not offer to take him home or get his house or flat ready, this situation needs a multi disciplinary meeting. It would be unsafe to discharge him knowing he is confused and a risk to himself and others. Step back, keep saying no and speak to PALS if you are not getting anywhere. Write a letter stating your concerns to his consultant, social worker, GP and PALs stating this is an unsafe discharge. Then you have something on record.

Siriisatwat · 21/11/2021 11:00

And she said he clearly doesn’t need to be in a care home yet and we can’t force him into one, but in the next breath said he was very confused.

So I said, okay, so what do I do about his car then? He’s not going to listen when we have to move his car down here when his house completes and I tell him he can’t drive.

She said the same thing the GP did, that sometimes people who shouldn’t be driving do Angry

This is why we need some sort of diagnosis!!

Currently there is nothing on his medical records to say he can’t drive.

I mean, I’d never let him drive again. but when he’s accusing me of trying to get his money to anyone that will listen, can you imagine when I refuse to let him have his car?

Everytime I speak to a social worker or a doctor I speak about his driving and I always get the same answer that they can’t help.

I’ve reported to the DVLA. But they contact the GP. And like I said, nothing on his medical records say he’s unfit to drive.

His old neighbours called the police, they were told there was nothing they could do.

I’m seeing him again this afternoon.

I am so frustrated at trying to get him some help.
This isn’t fair on any of us.

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Siriisatwat · 21/11/2021 10:50

Social worker from the hospital just called to say they can discharge him and he can come back here as he can get up from bed to chair ok.

I said no, went through everything again.

I said what about the cognitive assessment I spoke with the dr about yesterday? She said that has to be done in the community. Well, it’s
not because the GP couldn’t be arsed to refer him as he was in hospital.

So she said when is his flat ready, you’ll have to contact SS again for another assessment for home care once he’s in.

I’ve made it clear he can’t come back to my house because of the stairs he keeps trying to climb, he is going to fall. But because he’s only ever had one fall, and we are in touch with the falls advisor she said it wasn’t enough of an issue.

She is going to speak to the consultant and call me back.

This is such a shit show. No one seems to want to help him with any sort of diagnosis so we know where we stand.

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MereDintofPandiculation · 21/11/2021 09:40

@BigYellowHat

He has to have been assessed by a qualified HCP to have lost capacity in order for your POA to kick in. Under the Mental Capacity Act, people have the right to make unwise decisions (like not buying clothes that fit) and still be judged to have capacity. Speak to his GP/nurse/OT.
That depends how the PoA is written. The Finance one can come into effect while he still has capacity.

The Office of Public Guardian guidance makes it clear that capacity isn’t all or nothing, or even permanent. It says nothing about requiring assessment by an HCP

www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-be-an-attorney/how-to-be-an-attorney-property-and-financial-decisions

crimsonlake · 20/11/2021 22:27

You have worked in care so you know how it goes...he could go on like this for a good few years yet.
Better to sort a 'final move' now than having to move him twice.
I wish you all the best.

alexdgr8 · 20/11/2021 17:58

the hosp social worker should assess his needs before he is discharged.
can you ask her to liaise with local authority re extra care housing.
that might be a good option, if available.
i wish you all the best.

Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 17:15

I used to work a lot of nightshifts, getting people up and dressed for the day at 5am, or just the conveyor belt of changing pads as quickly as you could. It used to break my heart.

I got a warning once for spending time
comforting a lady who was crying. I didn’t get through the other pad changes fast enough before handover. Manager was furious but I couldn’t have left her so distressed like I was supposed to.

And i’d never be swayed by activities. Half the time they don’t happen (unless they know families will be visiting), or they are just ridiculous and inappropriate sometimes.

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dane8 · 20/11/2021 17:03

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KittenCatcher · 20/11/2021 17:01

Yes it's difficult finding somewhere nice, I ignore the cqc ratings now after working in healthcare for 30 years, it's not always the fancy expensive places that are best, our local council run homes seem much kinder. With a national shortage of carers and community help too it's even worse. I used to be against cameras but I can see why families and responsible managers have them installed.

CassandraCross · 20/11/2021 16:48

@Siriisatwat

It’s just so hard to be losing him like this and so fast.

He’s been not the easiest person. He’s curtailed my life since I was a child (wouldn’t let me go to college because he wanted me to stay near him, followed me around the country when I had to move, I’ve lost jobs in the past because he pretend to be ill so I would have to take so much time off, my first husband left me because of his demanding behaviour).

But despite all that he’s still my dad and seeing him like this kills me. I can’t stand it. Right now, I wish that he would become ill and pass away, as terrible as it sounds, I can’t stand to see him suffer like this, being so confused and knowing he will only get worse.

There is only him and me, my mum died when I was a child, no siblings, no extended family.

I just hate this.

All I can offer you is Flowers, this is so hard on you and no it is not terrible to not want your dad to suffer like he his.
Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 16:45

And it’s so different with my own dad, I’ve just gone to pieces and I can’t think or process anything.

I’m the same with my kids, I worked as a school welfare officer for a while, eve amount of injuries, broken arms, ambulance calls I did with ease - my own kids, I just crumble on the spot.

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Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 16:40

So that’s not helping my state of mind at all.

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Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 16:40

I’ve not mentioned this before but I was a carer on and off for years, caring for dementia patients.

I’ve worked for some of the so called best care home chains in the country, done agency work, I must have worked in dozens. The amount of times I’ve had to report poor care to the CQC when managers didn’t care.

I wouldn’t have boarded a dog some of the places I worked and the way some of the managers and staff acted when families visited, they deserved oscars.

So I’m so scared having seen what it’s like from the inside.

Dh says at least I could keep on top of it.

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KittenCatcher · 20/11/2021 16:35

Once he is a bit more settled the hospital staff can carry out their assessments, they probably wont do this while he is very confused, they also need to investigate the sudden confusion and deterioration. They should then hold a meeting with you and you all decide on where the safest place would be for him to live, it may be a carehome or an extra an care facility which are rented, they are £1k a month here in se London and the admission is through the local council. A carehome will be £1k a week minimum. If he pays himself he can claim attendance allowance and social services will carry out a financial assessment to see what help he may get towards funding, if it's really unlikely he can live on his own it might be easier just to sell the house, put his possessions into storage and spend the time looking for somewhere nice with kind staff where he can live and be cared for. Going from hospital to temporary care then a new flat then a carehome will be really unsettling for him. With the clothes, the hospital wont wash them so I would label anything and ask if you will be allowed to take them off the ward to launder them . Its such a difficult situation for everyone, dementia is so cruel.

Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 16:34

It’s just so hard to be losing him like this and so fast.

He’s been not the easiest person. He’s curtailed my life since I was a child (wouldn’t let me go to college because he wanted me to stay near him, followed me around the country when I had to move, I’ve lost jobs in the past because he pretend to be ill so I would have to take so much time off, my first husband left me because of his demanding behaviour).

But despite all that he’s still my dad and seeing him like this kills me. I can’t stand it. Right now, I wish that he would become ill and pass away, as terrible as it sounds, I can’t stand to see him suffer like this, being so confused and knowing he will only get worse.

There is only him and me, my mum died when I was a child, no siblings, no extended family.

I just hate this.

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cptartapp · 20/11/2021 16:23

Today is likely to be the best he will ever be.
Now is the time to act in his best interests, acknowledge needs outweigh wants and transfer straight to care home. This is what he has 'scrimped and saved for all his life'. To ensure he is safe and well cared for in his later years. If you wait for anyone with dementia to agree to a care home you will wait forever.
Your nuclear family, middle years and mental health matter more. Step right back and make it clear to social services you are withdrawing any support that enables a frail, vulnerable and muddled old gentleman to live alone. Carers or not.
As a district nurse of many years I saw the mess that people ended up in insisting on returning to unsuitable living conditions. With significant savings, the cost is largely irrelevant at this point, avoiding recurrent crises at home which is where he's headed, is the priority.

CassandraCross · 20/11/2021 16:17

I just wanted to pass on my very best wishes and sympathies to you Siriisatwat, you are going through an incredibly difficult time and I know how draining and upsetting that is.

My sibling and I had POA for my dad and it was a godsend, we only had the finance side but fortunately the welfare side did not become an issue, I am relieved you have both aspects. Husband and I have already done our POAs for both aspects because we saw with my dad how essential it was to have those in place.

My heart genuinely goes out you, you sound like you are doing a phenomenal job, so sorry for what you are going through.

Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 16:17

From a quick google, it looks like there is a savings threshold for the council which he would be over.

My dads SIL was the same, she had to go into a home for the same reasons at 83. She was fit and healthy too.

She lived for another 12 years, she died earlier this year. The last 8 years of her life she was just sat looking ahead. No life in her at all. It was terrible.

My dad begged no earlier this year never to let him end up like her. And now this Sad

But because she was so physically fit and it was just her brain, she kept on surviving.

So I never assume anything would be short term, even given his age.

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Siriisatwat · 20/11/2021 16:06

I’ll have a look into that, thank you.

I’m just so drained at the moment. This has all gone down hill so fast.

Mid September, he was filling up an online Ikea basket with new table, chairs and a bed for his flat and comparing prices to Argos and chatting to the estate agent about completion dates.

And now he thinks my husband, who he last saw on thursday is dead.

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