POA is it always ‘worth it’?

Me and my DSis have LPOA for Dad. He has capacity but no wish to deal with anything financial, so we (me mainly) deal with his finances. He has a debit card and spends what he likes, I monitor his account on online to make sure he doesn’t go overdrawn. If anyone phones him and anything to do with money, bills or contracts, he tells them his daughters have poa and talk to us.

I have the health LPA for one parent that was set up about 20-years ago but I have no idea if there is a financial LPA that someone else has or what the parent expects me to do.... or even if I should have agreed to it 20 years ago🤷

I've had LPA for a relative and it is indeed a convoluted and expensive process to get it activated - it took 13 weeks to go through the system pre-covid, and the week after Auntie died - I like to think she had the last laugh.
I have LPAs for finance and welfare for MIL but we are nowhere near activating. What we have done is:-
Change her current account to a joint so we both have cards;
Set up an iPad constantly on charge so that she can FaceTime me with 3 presses of a button (seems to communicate and understand better on FT than phone) although she uses the internet fairly confidently anyway);
Redirected post (with her agreement) to my house so I get to see all the bills etc;
She facetimes me to discuss her shopping, I order it on line from our account and she takes delivery;
We tend to sit over a cup of tea on a Sat afternoon and have 15 mins 'business time' where we sort out bills, repairs, etc. Then we actually state 'no more business, it's family time' and move on;
When dealing with companies on the phone, we put the phone on speaker and she goes through the ID requirements with me pointing at various codes, PINS etc, then she says "I'm going to hand you over to my DIL Mrs X who is here with me and can explain better than I can" and that usually does the trick;
I take a half day every few weeks to deal with all these calls etc.
But what has changed both our lives more than anything is her facing the fact that the house was too much for her and moving to a warden assisted flat. The flat cost as much as the house, and the service charge is expensive, but she is so much happier (and so busy!) and I worry much less, no stressing about if some shyster knocks on her door about a fictitious ridge tile missing on the roof etc.

OK. So it is fair enough for my father and I to agree for me to manage his savings subject to parameters he sets, and it might include the freedom for me to move money from one account to another for better interest rates. But it would not be OK for me, without his knowledge or consent, to simply take the PoA documents to the building society and start managing his savings accounts.

That's a distinction that needed making and one that I didn't think about because it seems obvious to me that you wouldn't do it without asking, if your parent had capacity.

[quote MereDintofPandiculation]@LemonRoses Agree with what you say except I'm having difficulty seeing how these two statements:

"The LPA may give you permission to make decisions while the donor still has the mental capacity to make their own financial decisions." [www.gov.uk]

and

"but you can’t actually have LPA or make their decisions until after someone loses capacity." [LemonRoses]

can be simultaneously true.[/quote]
Because regulation is rarely a perfect beast.

The website does not reflect the law accurately. People with capacity always retain the right to make their own decisions. They can donate that to someone else but it can always be overridden by someone with capacity.

Perhaps I should be clearer. Someone with capacity can ask someone else to say, decide which cleaner to employ and to set up,contract, payments etc. At any point the person can say, no, I don’t like them and prefer to clean myself. That is their right. Even if the house becomes untidy or the stove is caked in burned food. Their decisions cannot be overridden if they have capacity and are not subject to a section under the MHA.

@LemonRoses Agree with what you say except I'm having difficulty seeing how these two statements:

"The LPA may give you permission to make decisions while the donor still has the mental capacity to make their own financial decisions." [www.gov.uk]

and

"but you can’t actually have LPA or make their decisions until after someone loses capacity." [LemonRoses]

can be simultaneously true.

[quote MereDintofPandiculation]@LemonRoses If it’s illegal to use a PoA when the person has capacity, then why does the form explicitly ask if the PoA is to be used when the person has capacity or only when they’ve lost capacity? Or are you simply saying you must make sure you have their permission to use it while they still have capacity?

@MrsFezziwig The other benefit of starting from scratch is if the PoA is set up to be used only when the donor has lost capacity, and they want to change that[/quote]
It is illegal (Mental Capacity Act 2015) to deny people the right to make their own decisions and there is a requirement to support people to do do.

They can allow you to act on their behalf but have the absolute right to change their mind. The power of attorney is donated and must be registered whilst someone has capacity in order to be legally effected after someone loses capacity.

If someone has capacity, they can say you can act on their behalf in whatever way they is choose. A signed POA form might be acceptable by many services. It doesn’t give you the right to make all decisions for them. If they wanted you to sort their bills out for them, that would be fine as long as you involved them. They are giving you administration rights not decision making rights - the two are very different.

There is no reason not to use a signed form to permit you to administer affairs with consent, but you can’t actually have LPA or make their decisions until after someone loses capacity.

From the www.gov.uk page on powers of attorney

“ Starting as a property and financial affairs attorney
The LPA may give you permission to make decisions while the donor still has the mental capacity to make their own financial decisions. If it doesn't, you can only start making decisions when they don't have mental capacity.”

@LemonRoses If it’s illegal to use a PoA when the person has capacity, then why does the form explicitly ask if the PoA is to be used when the person has capacity or only when they’ve lost capacity? Or are you simply saying you must make sure you have their permission to use it while they still have capacity?

@MrsFezziwig The other benefit of starting from scratch is if the PoA is set up to be used only when the donor has lost capacity, and they want to change that

I can’t see the benefit of starting from scratch unless you wanted to change the attorneys. How much of a role would your sibling want to play in practice? If the POA is set up “jointly and severally” then you don’t have to involve them if they’re not interested. Then again I wouldn’t advise having only one attorney as if anything happened to you then you’re basically back to square one.

You are right age does make a fool of us all 😔
Even so it doesn't have to be like this, we can all see how these things unfold and it's not right that the burden falls on adult children whose lives are already at full capacity!
as a society we need better strategies for managing later old age

Register the POA now. You do not have to use it unless needed, and it does not override your mum’s right to make decisions while she has capacity, but when things get worse (which sadly is likely) you will need it and it will be ready and waiting.

“Pretending to be your mum” works fine until it doesn’t. I’m sure many of us (including me) have done it but obviously it is illegal.

Zolrets, please focus on your own well-being, it's not your fault that your parents have made such a mess of things 🙏

The advice above isn’t correct, although many services will see a form signed and registered and not check for themselves that it is valid because the person lacks capacity.

Capacity is decision specific. There is rarely ‘no capacity’ and each decision needs consideration of the least restrictive option and best way to help people make their own decisions.

In your case, a signed letter from your mother would usually suffice.

You cannot enact a POA without registering it whilst she has capacity. If it’s not registered, it’s simply a piece of paper with no legal status. Make sure it’s registered before she does lose capacity otherwise you have to apply for deputyship which is more expensive, more difficult and needs ongoing administrative responsibility to the OPG.

You cannot enact a POA when someone has capacity still. That is illegal.
You can act on behalf of your mother with her consent, but she has an absolute right to change her mind, to do things you disagree with or which seem unwise.
If she has capacity she can let you help, but all decisions are hers to make.
Even if she has reduced capacity, the law requires that you or any else gives as much support as possible to allow her to make her own decisions. Taking away a right to self determination is a last resort and not to be entered lightly.
Not being able to handle a call centre doesn’t mean she lacks capacity; it means she needs some help.

The second thing to check is, is it operational only when the donor (your Mum) has lost capacity, or can it be used when she still has capacity? It can be set up either way.

If you haven't got the OPG stamp on it, then it hasn't been registered. So you have the opportunity, if it's set up only to be activated when she's lost capacity, to start again from scratch and set it up so it can be used while she still has capacity - you can download the form from the OPG website and do it yourselves without a solicitor.

Step 2 is to get it registered with the OPG. Costs about £80 and takes a few weeks.

Step 3 is to activate it as and when with any financial organisation you want to deal with. You don't have to take over everything - my father looked after his day to day spending while I dealt with his savings accounts.

Capacity isn't an all or nothing thing. It's the capacity to deal with the decision in hand. You can have capacity to take one type of decision but not another. Or you may not have capacity on Tuesday but have it on Wednesday. Although you say your Mum is "cognitively all there" your description implies that she may not have the capacity to deal with bills and paperwork. Or she may have the capacity to deal with them with sufficient explanation or support.

Activating varies according to institution. Most will want to see the original or a certified copy (the Post Office offer a document certifying service - I don't know whether it extends to POAs). Some will accept a scanned copy sent by email - I've had that with insurance companies and utilities. A very few will accept your say so over the phone. They shouldn't do this - it makes your dealings with them more open to fraud by impersonation.

It's really useful, because not only does it mean, for example, that you can use her money to pay for her shopping, you can also talk to fuel suppliers if there's a problem (eg they've overcharged, or she's in credit and wants to get DD payments reduced) or if she wants to change to a cheaper tariff; you can talk to insurance companies on her behalf, telephone companies, the Council re community charge. An incidental benefit is that it means the difference between making phone calls at her house so she can authorise them to speak to you, and making phone calls at your house, where you can get on with stuff with the phone on loudspeaker while you're in the inevitable call queue.

If you don’t use the POA at the bank, you could simply be added, along with your sibling to your Mum’s bank account (with her authorisation).
You could have a three person account. This would give you your own bank card and internet access.