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Original poster

Care home 12 Week disregard - No clue what I'm doing!

31 replies

brightertimes123 · 04/12/2020 22:29

DM has been in a psychiatric unit for 4 months with delirium. Recovered to a good enough level she is now fit for discharge and has been for some time.
She has accepted that she can't go home and needs to go into care.

I have had zero help from the discharge team or ward manager - I feel like I am totally fumbling in the dark. All the responsibility has been put on me to find a suitable home without any guidance.
Just as I thought I'd finally found somewhere with an available room and had organised a needs assessment, at the 11th hour I have now been told I will need to apply for a "12 week disregard" from social services.
DM owns her own house which will be sold but no savings so would not be able to pay up front.

I am so angry that I've not been given any advice from or guidance on this. I've been waiting weeks to try and get DM moved (who is now incredibly frail and distressed at being in a psych unit). Just as I thought we were getting somewhere now this. I have now got to explain another delay to DM and risk losing the space at the care home.

Does anyone have any experience of this situation or the 12 week disregard? Does the application take long to be processed and agreed. I literally feel like no one gives a shit about DM and can't understand their attitude especially with demands on beds in psych units. You'd think they'd do everything in their power to get her moved Angry

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YesMeLady · 17/12/2020 18:15

Has her psychiatrist carried out a risk assessment

YesMeLady · 17/12/2020 18:13

Thats frustrating but maybe they took that decision after a risk assessment. Did the hospital include this information in their initial referral..does your dm have a full care needs and behaviiur
assessment that the hospital show to potential carehomes.

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 12/12/2020 21:48

Quick update...
On the bright side, I Thankfully managed to access DM's bank account - found her old log in details and managed to reset password! So I can now download the required statements.

However, after being told she was eligible for covid funding and having a nursing home lined up for Monday, I got a call from the hospital today saying the home had rescinded their offer.
After hearing that DM had self harmed (cut her arms) whilst in the early throes of delirium they decided she posed too much of a risk to herself and other residents. Despite reassurances from the unit that this was very unlikely to happen again the home was adamant.
I am so cross; why they didn't just say no in the first place I don't know. Also both the hospital and I had told DM she was going on Monday so you can imagine how she must be feeling now.

Will be straight onto the SW Monday morning but am just so sick of it all

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YesMeLady · 09/12/2020 11:46

You can also request a statement via the bank cash mchine which you can go through with your mum.The banks helpline might help if the branch get funny about setting up 3rd party and you can always ask the hospital PALS team for help.

MereDintofPandiculation · 09/12/2020 11:31

Yes she has capacity but she's currently only allowed 1 visitor and the hospital would not act as witnesses/counter-signatories. I imagine the same will be the case for a nursing home and possibly not even allowing me as a visitor. Nursing homes have a different remit. The hospital is merely concerned with returning your mother to a state where she can be cared for outside a hospital, whereas a nursing home is concerned with all aspects of her health and well being. So you may be able to get her one designated visitor to sign re capacity, and the nursing home manager to witness. But that doesn't get you over the hurdle of the solicitor.

I imagine the solicitor wants personal access because she will be wanting to ensure your mother has capacity to sign and isn't being pressured into this. It's normal for them to see the person on their own with the relatives out of the room. You don't know what's going on off screen in a zoom meeting.

But if you get 3rd party agreement with bank, it gives you breathing space, and time for testing and care home visiting to get a bit more organised.

PoA is still worth getting because it helps dealing with utilities and all other services involving money, and, of course, the house sale.

helpfulperson · 09/12/2020 11:07

If you dont have POA you cant deal with her finances. I know it's hard but you need to push it back onto social services to deal with.

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 09/12/2020 10:29

@YesMeLady

If you go to her bank you could ask about setting up a 3rd party agreement to manage her account
Didn't realise that was a possibility!
OP posts:
YesMeLady · 09/12/2020 10:17

If you go to her bank you could ask about setting up a 3rd party agreement to manage her account

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 09/12/2020 07:01

@FinallyHere

So sorry you are going through all this.

When I managed my late DM's finances, I found I could do pretty much everything with her account. Including asking for a password reset, which caused a new password to be sent to her home address.

I picked that up and took it from there.

Would that be any help to you ?

That's a thought; I shall give it a go! As I have her bank card Im also wondering if I can order paper statements from the machines inside the branch. Thank you
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Original poster
brightertimes123 · 09/12/2020 06:58

@Bills2pay

Is she sufficiently recovered now to grant you power of attorney?

You can download the forms from the gov. Uk website and complete them yourself - no need for a solicitor. You will need to have two others present when your mother signs to countersign - a witness and someone who has known your mum for over two years who considers she has sufficient capacity to sign.

If only it was that simple Yes she has capacity but she's currently only allowed 1 visitor and the hospital would not act as witnesses/counter-signatories. I imagine the same will be the case for a nursing home and possibly not even allowing me as a visitor.

The only realistic way to get The POA signed is to get Mum to a solicitor and hers is insisting she needs to do it in person (won't do Zoom). No way we will be able to arrange as things stand

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Bills2pay · 08/12/2020 23:23

Is she sufficiently recovered now to grant you power of attorney?

You can download the forms from the gov. Uk website and complete them yourself - no need for a solicitor. You will need to have two others present when your mother signs to countersign - a witness and someone who has known your mum for over two years who considers she has sufficient capacity to sign.

FinallyHere · 08/12/2020 13:38

So sorry you are going through all this.

When I managed my late DM's finances, I found I could do pretty much everything with her account. Including asking for a password reset, which caused a new password to be sent to her home address.

I picked that up and took it from there.

Would that be any help to you ?

MrsTwitcher · 08/12/2020 13:08

What a nightmare. Does your mum have the capacity to agree to move into a carehome and pay for it? Like a pp says if not how can anyone move her and access her funds without applying to the CoP.

MereDintofPandiculation · 08/12/2020 11:03

AGEUK might be another source of advice.

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 08/12/2020 09:16

Meltdown at the ready! Phonecall in 5 mins

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Purplewithred · 08/12/2020 08:48

Have a meltdown - they are all failing in their duty of care to your mum.

Call Citizen’s Advice too - they might be able to help or to point you in the right direction.

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 08/12/2020 06:55

@Purplewithred

So you have no access to your dms finances, and she doesn't have capacity to manage them? Or to grant you poa? So for you to take over you’re going to have to apply to be her deputy, and that can take several months.

In that case its back to the social worker in the immediate term. Push back on them and on the discharge team at hospital: during covid the NHS is (I think) still funding 6 weeks’ care to make sure people can be discharged quickly. Emphasise that you do not have POA for health or wellbeing for your mum, and that they must see that it is in her best interests to be discharged from the hospital to a suitable home asap. (Use the phrase ‘best interests’ early and often - its their responsibility to act in your mum’s best interests).

Is there a branch of Carehomeselection.co.uk near you? They have been working with our acute hospitals during covid and have been fantastic.

Just about sums it up and doesn't matter what I do I'm met with a brick wall. I am exhausted and given what else is going on here is making me ill now given what else is happening and I just feel sick thinking about how poor DM is being left to rot.

I have yet another (probably futile) call with the Ward Manger this morning. Am likely to have a total meltdown which won't help matters

OP posts:
Purplewithred · 07/12/2020 23:49

So you have no access to your dms finances, and she doesn't have capacity to manage them? Or to grant you poa? So for you to take over you’re going to have to apply to be her deputy, and that can take several months.

In that case its back to the social worker in the immediate term. Push back on them and on the discharge team at hospital: during covid the NHS is (I think) still funding 6 weeks’ care to make sure people can be discharged quickly. Emphasise that you do not have POA for health or wellbeing for your mum, and that they must see that it is in her best interests to be discharged from the hospital to a suitable home asap. (Use the phrase ‘best interests’ early and often - its their responsibility to act in your mum’s best interests).

Is there a branch of Carehomeselection.co.uk near you? They have been working with our acute hospitals during covid and have been fantastic.

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 07/12/2020 18:44

@Purplewithred

Do you have financial Power of Attorney for your mum?
Nope, was in process of sorting when DM became suddenly unwell Sad
OP posts:
Purplewithred · 07/12/2020 18:40

Do you have financial Power of Attorney for your mum?

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 07/12/2020 18:35

Finally tracked down a SW who is responsible for DM

I have been told to apply for the 12 week disregard but yet another hurdle is that bank statements will be required as evidence of financial status. If they can't be provided the disregard won't be granted.
All of DM's banking is online and there is no way she will remember her log in details, nor will she be compus mentis enough to get them reset. All she does now is cry and complain about how much pain she is in; a conversation regarding anything official is completely unrealistic.

I am so exhausted by all the this; literally feels like no one gives a shit and are just trying to make my life as difficult as possible. Aside from trying to manage DM, DB is also having serious personal problems and I am the only person who is supporting him. I'm being pulled in so many directions am in danger of going under myself.

Am seriously wondering what would happen if I said to SS that I'm done and DM is now their problem!. Hmm

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Lalalatte · 07/12/2020 13:35

Would have thought social services should help with this.

You can always request a deferred payment arrangement if unable to sell the house quickly.

flygirl767 · 06/12/2020 09:23

@DorsetCamping

Flygirl...it's me under yet another alias!! This is turning into the most unremitting nightmare. Ward Manager and some random connected person (who constantly tells me she's not a social worker!) are involved with this but between them are utterly useless.

When I phoned the shortlisted care home manager late yesterday to say I'd only just realised I needed to apply for the disregard, long silence at the other end. The guy obviously thought I already had that in place or DM had funds to bridge the gap. He only has 1 room and now I face losing that.
Utterly infuriating and poor DM meanwhile has totally given up.

Oh Dorset I thought the situation sounded similar to yours! So sorry you are still in this mess, I was only thinking of you recently and wondering if you had managed to move your poor DM. I can't believe she is still in hospital, what an absolute nightmare.

Could you try and ring the accounts dept at the care home first thing tomorrow and explain the terrible situation you are in? Once I got the ball moving with SS (by having a complete meltdown on the phone to the dept manager!) things happened very quickly. Funding was approved in less than a week (although not 12 week disregard) so hopefully the CH will hold the room for you.

Keep us posted and best of luck. You will get there..

Rinsefirst · 05/12/2020 17:04

This could be a long shot but your council may have an accounts team within the Elderly Care area of their Social Work department. I would try to speak to someone from there and ask them to show you how to work it out . The accounts assistant at my DM’s place was amazing and metaphorically held my hand until I understood. She had so much practical knowledge of unpicking everyone’s complications that she really clear at explaining

Original poster
brightertimes123 · 05/12/2020 13:39

@Diddlysquatty

I’m sorry you’re experiencing this Is her home on the market already? It will help to get it sold ASAP. One other thing to be aware of.... in our area and probably others... the 12 wpd is only available at the local authority rate so even if/when this is agreed there could still be a shortfall if the care home you’ve gone for is more expensive. Normally either family make up the difference, or the care home agrees to accrue a debt repaid when the house is sold.

Agree that is strange and if it was an acute hospital they’d be under pressure to get her out quickly so it would normally be a quick process
Social care assessment to check they deem her in need of residential care, financial assessment along side that, then funding application for 12wpd.

I would consider -

  • Seeing if you can kick off financial assessment process from the council website, that will at least get you on the financial assessment teams radar
  • Phone the main social services number and ask who your mothers case is open to
Make a formal complaint/complain via a local councillor or MP. Should not be the case but this is a sure fire way to get things moving in my team....

The discharge co-ordinatior at the hospital SHOULD be helping with all this. But they may have left you to it if they think your mum is ‘self funding’ but if she needs the 12wpd then she is not fully self funding and needs to go through their channels.

Good luck!

Also make sure if she has been on section 3 whether she should have joint NHS funding under section 117
And if not that she has had an NHS continuing care assessment (ask the discharge co ordinator)
Best of luck!

Oh and if the home you’ve found would be too expensive for the council rate for 12wpd ask them where there is an appropriate bed at the right rate

Thank you Diddly

Uurgh this goes from bad to worse.
What a farce. Yet another thing I hadn't considered was that the 12wdisregard might not be the full amount.
1st thing Monday I'm going to get straight onto SS elderly services.

Section 3 doesn't apply, she was in the unit under DoLs and not eligible for aftercare funding

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