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Original poster

DM about to dangerously discharge

262 replies

DorsetCamping · 14/06/2020 15:18

Apologies for the continuing saga but am at wits end.

To be brief DM (74) has been in hospital 3 times over the last month due to various conditions and the last admission being for 10 days and near deaths door. All pointing to her continuing decline and inability to cope independently.

She reluctantly agreed to go to a rehab unit last week and seemed to be making reasonable progress, no doubt due to be constantly monitored and with the 24/7 care.
Tentative Plans were being discussed for her to go home with an enhanced daily care package.

However, yesterday she had a fall, whereby her walking frame tipped and she banged her head. Thankfully she is ok but naturally it raised deeper concerns about her safety and needs when she goes home.

Onto this morning, she said she is self-discharging and that if I don't go and get her tomorrow she will call a taxi Hmm. Said that there is no way she is staying, hates it and is exhausted.
I have spoken to The nursing staff who are adamant that it is not safe for her to go home, especially with yesterday's fall and that her care package needs a new review. More worryingly is that no carers will even be available in the immediate future given COVID and calls on resource.
They have told DM all of this but she it's falling on deaf ears.

I am so cross her with, it's like dealing with a toddler. She has no clue about the worry this is causing or the implications with lockdown. All she keeps saying to the staff is that either I, or her elderly neighbours will help if need be.
I mean, WTF?!
They did ask me about her mental health as she seemed so low today but ultimately it is her decision.

I am so exhausted with her. All she is being asked to do it sit and recover - you'd think she was in a prison cell the way she goes on. I can pretty much guarantee that if she goes home tomorrow she will just end up in hospital again and we'll be back in the same merry go round.

OP posts:
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MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2020 08:57

Why the hell isn't DM being sedated? Perhaps she's not distressed y it? At least when she hasn't got visitors?

Supersimkin2 · 21/08/2020 20:39

Why the hell isn't DM being sedated?

Don't visit when she's like this. Ruining your day won't fix hers.

ClamDango · 19/08/2020 14:04

You're not a terrible daughter at all what do they think is causing this, is it dementia. It must be very upsetting to see her like this but maybe as pp suggests maybe it's best not to visit at the moment. Are the doctors starting any treatment at all yet.

flygirl767 · 18/08/2020 20:30

Oh @DorsetCamping you are an amazing daughter and don't ever forget it. That is not your mum you are hearing, it is the illness. I am sorry you find it so upsetting, do you think it might be better to back off with the visits a little if she is so distressed during them? She most likely won't remember that you have visited anyway.

I really hope they get to the bottom of what sounds like psychosis and can treat her accordingly.

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 18/08/2020 20:23

Just checking in to report DM is unfortunately the same if not worse. Totally paranoid and convinced at best everyone is a liar, at worse we are all trying to kill her.

Her behaviour when I visit generally swerves between distress, confusion, paranoia and verbal aggression.

I went today with DB; this was the first time he's seen her since being sectioned and he was so shocked. She barely recognised us and couldn't equate us with being her children. Very angry and even told me to fuck off at one point ShockShock (this from a devout Christian who used to tell me off for saying "OMG@!)

She pretended to be asleep for large spells of the visit and for the remainder talked paranoid, aggressive nonsense.

DB is convinced her brain has bern damaged in some way but we still are no further forward with answers or treatment. It's heartbreaking hearing DM tell me she hates me and just wants to go home to live in peace. I feel like a terrible daughter and ashamed to say I dread visiting her Sad

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flygirl767 · 11/08/2020 18:39

BY the way, I'm pretty sure 2 people have to be involved in the Dol's assessment, I would query that!

flygirl767 · 11/08/2020 18:28

Wow, she doesn't sound very approachable. Our consultant recommended the S3 but the AMHP had to meet with mum to ensure that was the right option for her. I wouldn't give up although it doesn't sound like the consultant will change her mind. Take more advice , you can most definitely challenge this as nearest family.

The MIND helpline will probably able to assist you in the application or deputyship as well. So sorry you have all this on your plate, you must be so stressed x

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 11/08/2020 18:12

Thanks @flygirl767
I have spoken with MIND legal helpline who advised in the first instance to question why the 'best interest' part of the DoLs assessment didn't involve me as nearest family member.

5pm - Have just come off lengthy call with the psych who seemed quite put out that I was questioning the decision and said legally I didn't need to be consulted Hmm
As she firmly believes DM doesn't qualify for S3 (despite no capacity, prognosis of being an inpatient for many months, and a risk to herself) it was solely her who undertook the DoLs assessment - nobody else was involved.

Really pissed off but feel like I've hit a brick wall and left with no choice but to accept her unilateral decision.

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flygirl767 · 11/08/2020 17:35

Sorry to hear this Dorset. When mum was coming to the end of her section, the AMHP rang me to discuss the way forward and also to advise me what the consultant thought. She also wanted to hear my thoughts on how mum was doing and whether I thought she had lost capacity. That is a bit off not involving you at all.

You can challenge it, not sure how but try one of those helplines I gave you details of. They have experts on them who know the MH laws inside out. I think the Alzheimers Org one is supposed to be the best. It is worth a try at least.

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 11/08/2020 17:17

No I know nothing,
the only reason I found out was because I rang to see how she was today and the nurse told me.

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ClamDango · 11/08/2020 16:56

Can you ask how they came to that decision, it may not be what you think. Have they discuused where she will be discharged to and what level if care she will need. She may qualify for funding. Its so annoying when they dont tell you whats happening if your named to be informed.

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 11/08/2020 16:46

Another update, I have just learnt that Mum's section 2 was rescinded this morning and replaced with DoLs. All done without any discussion or invitation to attend the meeting (remote)

Not only am I quite shocked but also suspicious that this was done covertly to avoid applying S3 and the 117 aftercare.

I have left a message for the psychiatrist to ring me but have no clue how to challenge the decision

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Original poster
DorsetCamping · 10/08/2020 19:12

No she is still being assessed. When I spoke to her psychiatrist last week she said she was reluctant to prescribe any meds at this stage before they have a clearer picture because of DM's multiple health conditions.

My understanding of section 3 is that it is more a case that a person needs to be treated in hospital even if diagnosis is not yet clear.

OP posts:
ClamDango · 10/08/2020 19:04

Is she receiving any treatment at all. Does someone need to be diagnosed with a treatable mental health condition to be on a section 3.

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 10/08/2020 18:47

Unfortunately even though I'm family, to class her house as occupied overnight stays must be someone who normally resides there.

When I visited DM yesterday (1st time since being moved) I was really shocked. If anything she has declined even more, both psychically and mentally. What is most upsetting is how scared and distressed she is but they won't give her any meds until the 'observation period' is over. Really hard to witness but at least she was pleased to see me.

OP posts:
growinggreyer · 10/08/2020 17:00

Can you go and stay overnight in her house to reset the clock on her insurance? It is all very stressful but you are being an absolute star for your Mum. Star How is she today?

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 10/08/2020 16:53

Sorry need to have a mini rant...

I was going through DM's paperwork yesterday and looking at her home insurance there are several clauses stating no coverage if the house is unoccupied for 30+ days.
So I rang Halifax insurance to tell them the situation but of course "computer says no" because of GDPR and I need to get her to contact them 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️. I stressed that is not going to happen nor likely to happen anytime soon and just wanted to let them know the house is unoccupied.
Hit a brick wall, no help whatsoever or even any empathy. Only thing the guy said he would do was log my call but without any detail.

Brilliant, if anything happens to her house before I can either get LPOA or Deputship we are screwed.

Times this call by every other company I'll have to also deal with and I'll be telling DM to shove over and make space for me! Angry

Rant over !!

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Original poster
DorsetCamping · 06/08/2020 23:08

Thank you @Sparticuscaticus that is so helpful.

I will try and find out who DM's advocate is as I haven't as yet heard that role mentioned.
It certainly sounds like S3 would be the better option especially as she will be in the same unit for sometime and lacks capacity but I don't want to seem grabby regarding aftercare (although obviously it would be great is she didn't have to pay!)

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Sparticuscaticus · 06/08/2020 15:42

They are meant to find the least restrictive option to detain someone. It means however that OPMHs in hospital sometime use DOLs instead of moving into a s3 of MHA at end of s2 MHA. Ask them for what reason? as if she needs to stay in a while for Further treatment in the same psychiatric unit then she would have far greater protection and rights under a s3 MHA (AND her aftercare related to her needs would be free (under s117 aftercare services) when she is discharged, which it would not be under s2 MHA then under a DOLS. )

As nearest relative you get a say, I strongly advocate for s3 MHA to be considered in these circumstances if it is a fairly balanced choice between the two, because IMO it supports persons rights far more clearly and their aftercare needs . Talk to her current IMHA (independent MH advocate) and ask her views. They will support what is best for client too

Original poster
DorsetCamping · 06/08/2020 14:09

Quick update as I've just spoken with DM's Psych.

DM is still in throes of delirium and until that subsides there is no further diagnosis. She has a few lucid moments but soon descends into confusion. What is causing the delirium they don't know although all the various medical conditions she has are likely to be impacting. It is also too early to diagnose whether the self harming is due purely to delirium or depression is present as a separate condition.

The S2 comes to an end on the 17th and DoLs is being suggested as an impatient. I've been advised DM could be there a while. Still not sure why this would be enforced instead of S3 or the differences between Mental Health Act and Mental Capacity Act but I have been told that any aftercare would be carefully planned and she would only go somewhere with specific care.

Not Sure whether this means it would be funded though 🤷‍♀️

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jessstan2 · 28/07/2020 18:04

I can assure you, for an elderly parent (and sometimes a child), being in hospital is like being in prison.

There will be carers available to help your mother at home. You say you are worried about her mental health but once she gets home, you may find she is better. There's a tendency to give unnecessary medication to elderly patients which often doesn't work very well and makes their mental state worse.

HappyHammy · 28/07/2020 18:00

If the doctors think it's more appropriate to place her under a DOLS in a carehome would she qualify for CHC funding, you can ask them this.

flygirl767 · 28/07/2020 17:21

Actually I'm sure it is a lot more complicated than what I have said above! Perhaps ring the helpline of either Mind or the Alzheimer's society, they have expert advisors who will be able to give you the correct information.

flygirl767 · 28/07/2020 16:52

Hi Dorset I'm glad the meeting was helpful. My cousin who's mum was sectioned under DOLs said it was used when hospital treatment was not needed for her mental condition but she was unable to look after herself and unwilling to go voluntarily to a care home. So if after 28 days they can do no more for your mum in hospital but she can't go home it would be DOL but if she needs further treatment and assessment it will be S3. (I think, I am no expert and have been thrown into this situation just as you have!)

As you know my mum has delirium too and she has been in a MH hospital 6 weeks and they still do not know the cause so I would think it likely your mum will be staying in unless they find the cause quickly.

Is she calmer now or still hurting herself?

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