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Elderly parents

What should we do

38 replies

potbellyroast · 10/03/2020 18:56

Sorry for the long post - not posted on here in years so please forgive any lack of etiquette.. I’m also terrified the person in question might see this and identify the parties involved.

So PIL are really struggling with their health. FIL has vascular dementia and has refused to agree to POA for years. He now does not have capacity and so DH is applying for a deputyship for him. SW has signed to say he doesn’t have capacity but WW3 is likely to erupt very soon.

MIL agreed to POA and this has just come through.

Over the years FIL has been physically, emotionally and financially abusive to MIL and has had many, many affairs. However MIL chose to remain with him and we’ve had to respect her wishes. Until recently we’ve thought that FIL being there enabled her to stay at home as she is totally housebound.

A neighbour has been very helpful over the last year or so and DH has been grateful to her when both of them have fallen and she’s has assisted them. PIL think a lot about her and say she’s like a daughter to them. As FIL had socially isolated MIL over the years they have no friends other than 2 neighbours. DH therefore asked them to be certificate providers for POA which they were happy to do. FIL was in hospital at the time and as we needed to get a key safe for MIL DH gave neighbour the number - essentially in case she had another fall as we live quite a distance away.

Since then neighbour has stepped up incredibly to help them. She started by occasionally making them cakes, then making them evening meals. She then started doing bits of shopping for them. She now calls around every day, twice a day. Empties MIL commode, makes meals and does shopping. She doesn’t seem to bother checking on their medication though.

The problem is that this neighbour is doing all the ‘nice stuff’ which is appreciated by PIL whereas we are left with difficult conversations such as stopping driving, getting in carers and trying to get them to pay bills. This has proved difficult as this neighbour appears to be working against us - we can’t convince them to get carers in to empty commode or support medication whilst ever they think she can do it. I have just taken 5 weeks off work to deal with a current crisis situation and find I arrive each day to find she has done the jobs I was intending to do and had bought shopping duplicating what I’d already bought.

MIL Says that the neighbour’s own mother left cash in envelopes around the house so that when she died the people who she wanted to got the money. Neighbour has said that her and her husband have just completed a will as they have a friend who does them. FIL doesn’t have a will and the neighbour has been telling him he should get one sorted soon. Now that he’s not driving, she is taking him to the bank where he takes out in excess of £1k each time. She has offered to take the money to keep it safe. MIL refers to neighbour as being extremely bossy and that she can get FIL to do whatever she wants. As mentioned earlier this is unusual as FIL is a very controlling individual. However, MIL sees this bossy behaviour as a positive thing.

Neighbour is unaware that FIL has been assessed as not having capacity and does not know about deputyship application.

DH is currently staving off bailiffs and court summons as no bills have been paid for months. We have no idea where the money that he has taken out has gone. He could not explain to SW where it had gone.

Recently PIL had a gas leak and DH agreed with SW that they shouldn’t use the gas fire as it’s not safe (she referred to fire authority) and also the gas hob. FIL has been throwing paper on the gas fire - witnessed by the SW. DH arranged for fire to be capped off. Somehow PIL got British Gas to come out and reconnect it all which DH and SW believed was beyond their capabilities.

Neighbour has been checking MIL’s medical file to see when an important appointment would be - she said that she’s allowed to look because it’s with one of the doctors that she works for...

Neighbour has also been supporting 2 other older ladies on the same street - one we know who has no family at all. She had been taking them shopping etc despite having a full time job, a family of her own and by all accounts loads of animals to care for.

I feel like we have been happy for this neighbour to keep a watchful eye on them but not sure now whether she is overstepping the mark, and if she is what do we do? We can’t stop her visiting as PIL think the world of her and do have the capacity to make decisions around friends calling around. Are we right to be concerned or are we overthinking things?? Are we being incredibly ungrateful and do we need to give our heads a wobble?

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HalloHalloHallo · 19/04/2020 15:00

Your PIL could be my neighbour. They are an elderly couple, he is abusive and horrible and he and she both seem to not have capacity from what I've observed and overheard. Most neighbours avoid them (including me) because he is so vicious. But there is one neighbour couple who is 'keeping an eye on them' but the reality is this couple is taking advantage (emotionally and financially). We can all see it but we say nothing because we don't like the elderly couple and don't want to get involved (sounds horrible but it's true).
I would be leary of the neighbour OP but I'm not sure there is anything you can do other than report your concerns to social services but I don't think they will do anything tbh. SS have visted my elderly neighbour and offered assisted living accomodation which would be much more suitable for them, but the elderly neighbour refused it because 'neighbour is looking after us' Hmm
I think if SS think anyone is taking on a care role they will quickly back out it would seem even if the 'carer' is not actually providing care but rather is taking advantage of the vulnerable.

Good luck OP Flowers

potbellyroast · 24/03/2020 20:24

Quick update. I wonder about everyone else but do you get the feeling that the elderly are being abandoned to an extent by services who can’t do anything in the current climate...?

GP said he would refer the situation to safeguarding. That was a week ago. Heard nothing since.

SW got in touch and suggested sheltered housing. Phoned one or 2 - they’re not doing anything regarding referrals at the current time.

MIL is definitely loosing capacity and at a rapid pace. She’s confusing so many events that she would have been very clear on just 3 months ago.

Neighbour is taking over all deliveries of food and supplies and PIL have told us to stay away ‘just in case’. Even things DH has organised in terms of delivery, they think neighbour is doing.

information governance team from hospital phoned back regarding neighbour looking at PIL medical records. They said they can’t say too much due to GDPR but they said there are some ‘discrepancies’ and the matter has been passed to HR. They’ll phone back next week with a further update.

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ploppityplop · 13/03/2020 16:08

well 1 good thing !

potbellyroast · 13/03/2020 14:59

Thank you ploppity. However events have overtaken us - FIL was discharged from hospital yesterday which was a huge surprise as we weren’t expecting it just yet. I think they are freeing up beds for the coronavirus influx.

However, the result is that he had been released without any assessment of his dementia which has deteriorated significantly in the week he’s been in.

Last night he set fire to the kitchen. Today he is shouting and screaming at MIL asking who has set fire to his house Confused

DH called police - they called around but have phoned DH to say nothing further that they can do right now other than suggest sheltered housing.

DH called duty SW - nothing they can do and suggest sheltered housing.

DH called GP - FIL spoke to GP said he was fine. MIL spoke to GP said she was fine. They both refused to let SIL who is there speak to GP.
GP phoned DH back and said everything is fine.

However one plus point is that MIL is finally seeing through neighbour!!! In fact I think she has said something to her as she’s keeping her distance...for now.

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ploppityplop · 13/03/2020 13:48

I wouldnt even tell mil

ploppityplop · 13/03/2020 13:47

I hate to say this OP but I think this "kind neighbour" is up to something! She`s visiting other vulnerable elderly folks etc??? All I see is red flags!!

You can get cameras really small and nbobtrusive. Id be tempted to just secrete them (with something to worth nicking to catch her in the act). Then idleally let slip to neighbour where that place is???? Then wait. If shes honest shell tell you. Or youll have evidence for police.

HappyHammy · 11/03/2020 20:17

Absolutely send a copy of the capacity assessment and the deputyship confirmation letter when dh gets it to his gp and hospital records, they need to know anyway in case he needs care from either of them as dh may well be involved in any decisions. . I would ask if his gp or community nurse could pay a visit just to see him, he should be placed on their vulnerable risk list if they have one.

potbellyroast · 11/03/2020 20:09

No his GP and hospital are not aware that’s a good point. No POA in place so DH is applying for deputyship - SW has just done the COP3 form for him. Maybe DH should send that to GP and hospital for info.

SIL has been to see MIL tonight and neighbour has been nowhere near today - maybe she’s read this thread!!

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HappyHammy · 11/03/2020 19:39

Pil needs to give his permission for his health records to be accessed, if he lacks capacity that has to be whoever has poa and mil doesn't have it for him. Are his gp and hospital records dept aware he lacks capacity.

potbellyroast · 11/03/2020 19:32

Thanks happyhammy I’ll get DH to speak to the bank.

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potbellyroast · 11/03/2020 19:31

Thanks moonbells- I suspect that neighbour will say she had a business reason to look i.e. that the appointment was due to be with the hospital doctor that she works for and that MIL gave her permission to look.

In terms of cameras - PIL would never agree to it so we would be doing it without their permission which for FIL I don’t have a problem with as he doesn’t have capacity but as MIL has greater capacity make decisions we may be on sticky ground?

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HappyHammy · 11/03/2020 19:16

How frustrating. I would still contact the bank as ndn is using his card and taking him to the bank. I would also seriously consider getting a camera installed.

moonbells · 11/03/2020 19:01

Information governance person here.

Your hospital should be able to see who has accessed your parents' records. Make a written Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 2018 (aka the GDPR) and ask to see who has accessed them. If there is no legal basis for someone to be looking, then you can report them to the Information Commissioners' Office and also the Trust's HR dept. They take a very dim view of employees who are just nosy. Email counts as written and they have around a calendar month to reply.

Within your own home a CCTV camera is perfectly legal; if it looks out on someone else's property/garden then it isn't.

Best of luck...

potbellyroast · 11/03/2020 18:50

Managed to speak to the elder abuse helpline who told me that we are in a very difficult position given that PIL want neighbour to visit and they are happy with her doing all the work etc. If it was just FIL who doesn’t have capacity it would be easier but give MIL has capacity to make this decision there is nothing much we can do. They advised speak to SS safeguarding team and try speaking to neighbour again.

DH spoke to safeguarding team who pretty much washed their hands of it. They suggested calling the police about the money but as I’ve said we can’t say that she’s taken any money as we have no evidence, other than money is missing. Given FIL memory it could well be hidden in his bedroom which looks something like on one of those hoarders programmes.

The only other suggestion SS made was for CCTV / cameras and they seemed to suggest that this was lawful but I’m not sure and will need to do some research.

DH will speak to hospital regarding medical notes tomorrow. I’ll be speaking to the neighbour Confused

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HappyHammy · 11/03/2020 10:15

Great update, hope you get this all sorted out, update us if you want to share. Flowers

flowerflies · 11/03/2020 06:52

You do not need POA to report a concern re accessing medical records. Your suspicion is there, all you have to do is contact the appropriate department in the hospital.

potbellyroast · 10/03/2020 22:51

Ok - so DH has just emailed the SW updating her on recent events.

I’ll prioritise ringing the action on elder abuse helpline and keep trying to see if I can get through and then follow advice, including ringing the police if that’s appropriate.

DH has got details of how to request who has viewed his parents medical records and will get on with that tomorrow. Not sure he’ll be able to do FIL but he’ll give it a go. Can definitely do his mums as he has POA.

DH and I have tried very carefully to speak to MIL about neighbour but she truly won’t have a bad word said about her.

I’ll speak to neighbour to let her know SS have taken over regarding FIL and that he no longer has capacity.

DH will speak to fraud dept of FIL banks.

Thank you to everyone - it has really helped to run things through with you all Flowers

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HappyHammy · 10/03/2020 22:33

She needs to know he has lost capacity and that social services are now involved in all aspects of his care. Your mil needs to protect him too. Can your dh try and talk to his mum dont worry about a Will as you have to be of sound mind or it isnt valud.

freeingNora · 10/03/2020 22:29

I'm sorry but I'd be calling the police the neighbour sounds like an elder abuser and if she's crying about it like this it's because she thinks the game is up

She's been relying on you being too nice to cause a fuss

HappyHammy · 10/03/2020 22:07

The hospital can check what she has accessed so thats easy to sort out. She actually sounds pretty sneaky and abusive.

potbellyroast · 10/03/2020 21:41

Thank you everyone- DH went around weekend before last to ask her to leave health and financial issues to family members. He was careful to say how much we appreciated her keeping an eye on PIL but that we felt uncomfortable with her discussing wills, taking FIL to bank, offering to keep money safe etc.

She completely denied accessing medical records which I know is a lie as I was in ear shot when she was talking to MIL about looking at them.

First thing she did was wait until we left and then visited PIL crying saying we had accused her of stealing money - which we absolutely have not done! Then because they think she is wonderful and can do no wrong, we were in the firing line (again).

Neighbours daughter then came around shouting at DH (he’s never met her before) and said, amongst other things, ‘there’s loads of money in that house’.

DH has text neighbour to say if she thought we were accusing her then we absolutely were not but could we work together in best interests of PIL. no reply. We are really worried that we have started something that is purely innocent, but we had some lovely paramedics who came around when FIL was ill and they had a long chat with us and said that they felt it could be something more sinister and encouraged us to speak to SS.

The reason we left it with SS was that they assured us that their specialist team, which includes the police, would take this matter on and had accepted the

Sorry if I’m drip feeding but I was conscious of such a long OP.

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Mumdiva99 · 10/03/2020 21:26

What if she is just a kind neighbour? Could you arrange a meeting with her to talk through this? My mum is that kind of neighbour....I sometimes think she over steps the mark and maybe she does but it's done with the best of intentions. With one neighbour the daughter arranged for my mum to get the carers allowance as she was doing so much for her. In return my mum treated it like a job and committed to visiting at certain times and only took time off when the family arranged cover.

The money thing is worrying. But again just ask as the neighbour might know where it's going or being hidden. And if she is dodgy at least she'll know you know and think twice before doing it again. Let her know you are seeking power of attorney so she understands the seriousness of the situation. And good luck with it all.

ploppityplop · 10/03/2020 21:24

she is abusing their trust utterly. Anyone in her postion in the NHS would KNOW not to do any of this . The fact shes doing this to other elderly people nearby sets alarm bells ringing!!! Dont feel bad if she got suspended......she does know she is in the wrong. so stop fannying about please. Its elder abuse. frighfully common.

HappyHammy · 10/03/2020 21:20

If you now have poa for her and.asked.deputyship for him you can arrange mail redirection via.the post office but will need to show the documents.

ploppityplop · 10/03/2020 21:20

call the police. she`s abusing her position fullstop.

You`ve tried being "nice".

She will know (shell have had training!) shes in the wrong.