Probably going down in flames...

@picklemepopcorn yes it's good to have someone who knows your feelings in real life.

@FuckKnuckle

Yes the "which chair do I sit in" is a helpful concept. What can be scary, in personal terms rather than work terms, is how angry I can feel. I'm glad that pity is starting to take over because otherwise I'd just be furious all the time.

I'm going to say this here because I can't tell people in real life. I mentioned that dad now wants treatment for something he was diagnosed with last year, at that time he refused treatment.

Now he's saying his logic is he wants treatment "because it's got worse" - well of course it has! Anyway, it's got worse to the point that he is seriously wasting NHS time, they have to get a bunch of specialists to consult so his appointment is weeks away, understandably. It was a very simple treatment if he'd had it originally.

He's already saying "they won't know what to do and will shove me round from one person to another and how do I know they are doing their best". I saw them on Friday as said in a pp. while I didn't shout at him about this, I made it very clear that he has put the docs in a difficult position and the fact that he's already gearing up to criticise them annoys me.

I told him he was being disrespectful about people who are trying to help and he just sat there looking mournful like the egomaniac who can't believe they aren't right all the time.

Plus, talented NHS doctors have now saved him many times. There's a supreme arrogance in expecting to be immortal, I think. But even more in expecting people to bust a gut to save you when you've let a situation get worse.

Thank you both. They were very supportive. They know me well enough to realise that I wouldn't casually neglect her and that I must have good reason for my anxiety.

@pickle - as Lighthouse said, I hope your friends were understanding and supportive. I completely get what you mean about feeling pity, but not affection. It does help a lot to realise that I'm not alone in feeling this way, though.

@Lighthouse - I might have cried from anger instead of showing them I was pissed off - does that make sense? GOD yes. The number of times I've cried furious tears while wishing I could communicate how I really felt!

Thankyou so much for understanding, although I'm sad for the reason that you understand so well - your father being a shouter has left a deep impression on you. And thankyou for the advice about disengaging if DB starts again, too - it's almost exactly what my DH suggested! I don't (yet) have the moral fibre to stand up to him, exactly, but I'm sure I could put the phone down - I could probably even tell him why before I did it. Small steps, I suppose! And no, he's not likely to turn up - he's a couple of hours away.

for both of you. I hope you're having good days.

@picklemepopcorn

Hope they were supportive. I've told one friend, she thinks the majority feel like this but don't say it. Her parents are dead and she was very relieved when the second one went. I think for many there is a bad period, a worse period perhaps, when you're left with one.

Popping back to share that I actually said it out loud today. I told two trusted friends that I will feel nothing but relief when she goes, that I feel no affection for her at all, just compassion and pity. I do what I do to support her because of who I am, not who she is/what she is owed etc.

I'm so angry about the neglect when we were young. It's all coming back.

@FuckKnuckle

yes, I went over there last night and there was a definite sense of honesty doing the rounds!

re your brother. My dad is a shouter and as a child it made me cry. Then as a teen I heard of an exercise when they asked children to sit in an "angry" chair or an "upset" chair so they could unpack their feelings in response to various scenarios. It was really good because there were times I was shouted at in the workplace and I might have cried from anger instead of showing them I was pissed off - does that make sense?

anyway, I understand that being shouted at can be shocking and quite horrific.

however, the other way to make it stop is to refuse to engage with the person doing it. okay, in a job, that's often not possible. but with your brother, another option is to walk away or put the phone down.

my dad would have continued shouting for no reason - he does this to everyone, or he did - but as older children in our 20s, my sis went almost NC and I have left their house when he starts. One time I told him I wouldn't speak to him again unless I really had to. That lasted about 2 years. since then he has learned to stop shouting.

bullies fling themselves around freely when there are no consequences. I only conversed with him again after that 2 years because there was a hospital incident where mum couldn't cope.

so I do understand how you feel. I avoid shouting in all possible situations. I will do conflict at work purely because I have to, but in my ordinary life I do not deal with anyone who brings conflict - I don't care what the blood link is.

If your brother shouts at you on the phone again and you hang up, is he near? Is he likely to turn up banging on the door? shouters do shut up when they realise no one is listening.

I feel for you.

@Lighthouse, it sounds as though you're in a similar position to me, in that you've just started the long trek out of the FOG. I have only just realised in the last six months or so that what I thought was love for my elderly, ill parent was, in fact, FOG - the same FOG that's held me in thrall all my life. I feel quite resentful that I spent the first 50 years of my life trying to please a mother for whom I'm never going to be enough. But I still find it very hard to work out whether I'm planning to do something because I want to, or because I'm worried about what my Mum and brother will think if I don't.

I'm really pleased to hear that you and your DPs are being so honest with each other. That must make a big difference, not having the whole, "I wonder if they're expecting...?" hanging over you.

What am I scared of? Phew - that's a thread in itself. This is becoming a massive drip feed, and I'm sorry, but if I was to try and write all my family issues in one post, generations would pass in the reading of it! The answer will also reveal just how wet I really am, but...

I'm scared he'll be angry with me and shout. I've been bought up never to question, never to argue, never to stand up for myself, and to avoid conflict whatever the consequence. As a result, I am totally devoid of backbone. I incurred his anger a few years ago (over the phone), and I've never been shouted at before - I've managed to avoid it all my life. To have my brother, who was my best friend when we were kids, shouting down the phone at me, so furious his voice was shaking...I was in tears, apologising for everything including some things that weren't my fault, and promising him the moon, just to make it stop.

I'e annoyed him a few times since then, but I've always managed to deflect it by sending a super grovelly text or by getting my DH to speak to him. I pay lip service to what I'm going to say next time, how I'm going to stand up to him, how I'm going to deal with it...but I know that when we start to descend into it again, I will just crumble.

So, yeah. There you go. I'm scared of him shouting. How pathetic is that?

@FuckKnuckle

do you mind if I ask, what are you scared of? I totally understand if you don't want to answer.

no, you haven't put your (same size foot as me) in it at all. I have taken it on board as a way to help me manage and to be less in the FOG.

It's funny how this stuff develops - it doesn't really matter to me on an emotional level, but I'm actually quite annoyed that I didn't know before, because I would not have been busting a gut to go there all the time.

the honesty has definitely been good because they haven't pressured me to visit lately either, and phone calls are now down to "I don't actually know when I'm calling next, do we have to fix a time?" and now they say "no, it's okay, you can call when you like".

that was another pet hate of mine - they would answer their landline and chat to whoever called at whatever time, to the extent of letting food go cold, but with me, they always wanted to fix a time!

Sorry for the delay in posting.

@devilinme - bless you. "How long can this go on?" Exactly. It's like some obscene cosmic joke that doesn't seem to have a punchline.

@Lighthouse - ouch. That's tough. I get your point about not being a "consolation prize", but you would hope that the presence of her children would be some comfort to her...
This is going to sound horrible, and I can't think of a better way of pitching it, and bear in mind that I have always had a dysfunctional relationship with my family so I'm no expert, but maybe that could be a catalyst to you being a bit less selfless and putting yourself first a bit more? I get the sense that maybe you feel that too. I'm sorry if I've just put my dainty size 4 in it in a big way, but it came from a well-meaning place!

Back at Knuckle Towers, where my lovely DH continues to try and untie the Gordian knot that my Mum's finances have become (long story and far too identifying), my DB has taken umbrage at a minor misunderstanding. As I said, I know my experience of family is not normal, but I would have thought this was something we should all be able to talk about and work towards solving together...

And I'm damn sure I shouldn't be frightened of him

@devilinme

that's shocking

@Fucknuckle

probably going into too much detail here, but in terms of the "I love my mum" thing, it came as a bit of a shock to me to find out recently that she feels totally unable to cope if dad goes. Thing is, if dad goes, we could actually move in with her, but we had a very honest conversation about it and it seems it would be no comfort to her at all.

that conversation has impacted on how much I want to see her, because tbh I now feel that she doesn't love me that much! I'm not saying a child can be a consolation prize after the death of a partner - but she really seems to feel her life will be pointless if dad goes before her.

so this in turn made me think, okay, it's clear that when I go with him to hospital appointments to save her the trouble, she's sitting at home riddled with angst anyway. and she wants to spend all her time with him and will probably just fade away, in the mental sense, when he's gone. so that kind of makes me feel a bit hopeless.

I don't judge you in the slightest OP and find reading this thread a relief in some ways but wrt comments about elderly people being self absorbed etc I think in many cases, they just can't see outside their own, often difficult, situation.. I feel resentful a lot sometimes myself but I do know that life outside their immediate challenges is just not seen/taken into account.

I'm waiting.

It's like the living dead in the nursing home and I often wonder how many other people whose parents are in there are just waiting too.

DM has;

No mobility
Severe muscle wastage
Arthritis
Stage three CKD
High blood pressure
Heart problems
Double incontinence
Insulin dependent diabetes since her late twenties
Dementia setting in

How long can this go on?

Yes, exactly that about never thinking you'd be in this situation. My Mum was living in her own home with carers coming in 4 times a day and we all assumed her life would end peacefully in the home she'd lived in all her married life...except it didn't pan out that way, and now here we are.

It's lovely that you love your mum so much. I must have sounded pretty hard and uncaring in my previous post, but my relationship with mine was very dysfunctional; I didn't actually realise that until a couple of years ago. I couldn't see for FOG, and spent my entire life trying to please her and win her approval, thinking this was normal and how everybody's relationship was with their mother. I don't love her, and I don't think she ever loved me - she never said as much, at any rate, and she said and did some pretty hurtful things - and when I visit her it's because I know it's expected and I feel I ought to.

It's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about how your parents' choices are going to impact on you in the future. But I think it's good that you're aware of that. Make sure you put limits and conditions in place as things progress so you are still able to live and enjoy your own life. It's not selfish - we only have one life, and we should make the most of it and be as happy as we can. Also you'll have more to talk about with your Mum when you see her

@FuckKnuckle

I do really love my mum and I don't like being far from her tbh. But she is devoted to my dad, which makes it hard, and he is very robust and will live longer.

it's weird; I didn't move away in my 20s and 30s when I wanted to because I was terrified they would die. I even turned down the chance to work in New York.

Now, my actual fear is them living till 95 in a nursing home and not even recognising us when we visit. but I suppose I never thought of that happening. To some extent it's been a surprise to my generation - we simply didn't realise the drugs would keep developing and also didn't realise there would be such an obsession with keeping people alive. I thought my parents would never "choose" that kind of thing but now they take all the preventative drugs, have every procedure - dad has another ICD now which they say will give him another 10 years so that's 90 - and they won't sign a DNR, to me that's effectively saying that they are happy with the idea of being 90+ in a home and not really able to do anything.

I'm surprised because that's not a choice I ever thought they'd make. I'm also scared for myself because of how it impacts me though.

@Lighthouse, thankyou.

And for you too. Well done for stepping back a bit and giving yourself some space. One of the things that has kept me sane was advice I read on various posts here on Mumsnet - phrases like, "you are not responsible for anybody else's happiness" helped me to see the wood for the trees and to allow myself to have time for me and stop keeping my life on hold waiting for the day when I didn't have to worry about DM any more.

@FuckKnuckle

Only just found this thread. I wish I'd discovered it a long time ago. OP, you are not evil. Not at all.

Every morning I hope that today will be the day I get the phone call from the nursing home to say my mother died in the night. Not so long ago, DH came home from work early; he messaged me to say that he was on his way as he'd been taken ill, but I didn't get the message, and when I saw him walking up the garden path I thought she had died and he'd been contacted at work. My immediate reaction was, "Oh, at last - it's over..."

My DF died nearly 20 years ago, and all she wants is to be with him. She's bedridden, doubly incontinent, pretty much paralysed on one side, her eyesight and hearing are very poor, and when we visit her all she talks about is how she wishes she was dead and how she hopes every night that she won't wake up in the morning. We (me and DB and my DH, who is an absolute saint and without whom we'd probably both have had a breakdown by now) have tried so hard to find things for her to do, look at, talk about, but it's impossible to divert her...visits are purely duty.

When she does finally go, it will be a relief for all of us.

There, I've said it. And it was very therapeutic, and a little bit scary.

@gingercat02

thanks and I'm sorry you had to deal with all that

losing my temper with the olds seems to have done some good. I haven't been in touch but my mum rang and said that actually they are starting to acknowledge they might live well into their 90s and will need a nursing home etc and I can't be expected to run round after them or base where I live on their needs.

I am relieved to hear this, though how long it will last no one knows. She also said to me not to worry about accompanying dad for his latest round of treatments - the ones he refused last year - and that she will do it.

tbh in the past I would have worried about her doing it but now I just think apart from the 3 hour round trip and time off work, she is the one who really wants him to have treatments and if I went, she'd likely end up tagging along anyway. If they want to prop each other up till 100 that's fine, I respect their choice, but I cannot be part of all the to-ing and fro-ing any more and I'll be into unpaid days at work if I keep using annual leave. Boss has now been very good about it all over a period of 5 years, but I think it has tested her patience at times.

Not evil! I was pleased when my father died for many many reasons and I didn't have to care for the miserable old git

Thank you. I just can’t see her ever improving & it’s heartbreaking just seeing her sit there day after day in such turmoil. Everything sends her into a panic so have to be so relentlessly cheerful when visiting her & usually burst into tears as soon as Im back home

@Turquoisesea

gosh, your poor mum. I understand what a burden that is for everyone else of course.

Sorry to everyone who is struggling. I also wish my DM would pass away peacefully in her sleep & feel guilty for thinking this as she was genuinely the loveliest, caring mum I could have wished for. Unfortunately she had some sort of massive mental health breakdown a couple of years ago which she has never recovered from. She is now in a care home as she couldn’t look after herself at all & is on medication which isn’t helping & has been abandoned by the mental health services. I am the only person who visits her as she won’t let anyone else. My DSis & DBro aren’t local & maybe visit her twice a year. Ironically physically she is in good shape for 83. Her anxiety is off the scale, she doesn’t really have any conversation & spends every day sitting in a chair staring at the wall. In nearly 2 years she hasn’t once read a book, watched TV, join in with anything or leave the home. It is exhausting mentally visiting her as there is never any improvement & I have the constant guilt that I can’t help her or spend more time with her. I pray every day that she will pass away peacefully in her sleep as she has zero quality of life & selfishly it would be a massive relief!

today I'm seriously going to chat with DP about moving

there could be a constant round of "I'm ill -> I have treatment -> I'm cured" for another 20 years couldn't there?

Summer in particularly highlights how much we hate London but it's not the sort of thing we can do in a hurry anyway.

Meant to give  for ParoxetineQueen

Hi Vanilla and Paroxetine

Sorry you are both having such a hard time too

We have a friend whose mother seems to have had DNR overridden....she told the doctors but never wrote it down. Then when she had a second stroke, the doctors wouldn't take it from her three adult children. It was terrible.

I feel I have completely run out of sympathy....and the ability to pretend. It sounds so awful doesn't it. My parents are always telling me that past a certain age you should get this, that, the other checked. I've no interest in it anyway, but even less so so now I see how life can end up!