Power of Attorney?

Sinister, your Dad's application for an LPA has to be countersigned by a certificate provider who confirms that in their view, your dad understands the LPA and is not being pressured into it.

Given the circumstances, I suggest you get his GP to be the certificate provider.

I do a lot of LPAs and you really do have to be extremely careful to do it all above board.

Good, try and move fast, maybe make an appointment to see your dad s GP and outline the situation. Most GPs have experience of dementia and the stress it puts on families and try to be helpful. It is in your dad s interests that someone competent manages his finances.

SBM for what it's worth I wouldn't give up on LPA just yet. He may be a lot worse cognitively because he is in hospital and has other health problems going on. Is there evidence of an infection at the moment? It boils down to whether he will sign and whether a person in a position of trust and responsibility eg his GP will sign too. If his GP is sympathetic and feels you are acting in his best interests (and not to raid his bank account) then that's half the battle. With my Dad I'd say he was quite iffy by the time he signed and needed lots of reassurance. I stressed this did not remove any powers from him (that was very important) it just added some to me IN CASE I ever needed them. Then he was happy to sign.

You can't make an LPA if you've already lost capacity, Sinister.

The procedure is for you (or someone else in the family) to make an application for a guardianship order. This is a lengthy and expensive process and I strongly suggest that you seek legal help through the process.

Sometimes they are, sometimes not. Your parents could get around the problem of your sister not being around to sign every cheque etc by making the LPA on the basis that you can both act "jointly and separately". So either of you can sign docs etc.

Thanks mumblechum1!

Would both siblings normally have an LPA? My sisiter emigrated last year and is unlikely to ever return to the UK but i don't want her to feel left out of decision making.

OldBeanbagz, the advantage of an LPA is that it covers everything, not just bank accounts. So if either of your parents lost capacity, you would be able to deal with any enquiries such as with pension companies, utility suppliers, selling or buying shares, paying bills, selling property, etc. You'd have the same ability to deal with his finances as if they were your own, but always bearing in mind the doctrine that such actions must be in the donor (your dad, in this case)'s best interests.

mumblechum1 can i ask, do i have to have Power of Attorney in place to have anything to do with my Dad's finances? Or can he just name me on the accounts?

He was diagnosed with Parkinsons 6 years ago and today is the first day that he's openly talked about. Until now he's prefered to keep all conversation light-hearted though obviously i get upates from my Mum.

Today we were talking on the phone and he's asked me to take on looking after some of his 'financial interests' in the event of something happening to him

He doesn't feel that Mum can cope with it as she's older than him and not at all computer savy.

If doing a life interest trust in a will, it's crucial that the property is held as tenants in common, rather than joint tenants. Severing a joint tenancy and registering it at HMLR is fairly straightforward and I usually do that at the same time as writing the will with a life interest trust.

Thanks Mumblechum, I thought it might be that way. Dad does have access to all funds, so thats not an issue, but if/when he dies I'm going to have to deal with everything and I guess I'll have to apply for guardianship. But I will ask dad to make an appt to see their solicitor to check.

bizzey, that's exactly right. A life interest trust means that the surviving spouse doesn't inherit the deceased person's share in their jointly owned property, but they're allowed to live there until their death, remarriage, or voluntarily giving up the home.

I generally also include a portability clause so that if they move into a smaller house they can do so, and of course I take instructions about what would happen to any surplus arising from the sale and purchase; it could just go as a cash lump sum to the surviving spouse (and therefore be liable to care home fees), or be paid to the other beneficiaries at the point of sale and purchase.

Life interest trusts do cost more than standard wills because they're obviously more complex.

CMOT, to be brutally frank, from your description of your mum, it doesn't sound as though she still has competency to make an LPA. The options for her, therefore, would be to try to ensure that your dad has access to all funds (eg so that he can pay for her expenses out of her pension), or if that isn't possible, he may have to make an application for Guardianship through the Office of the Public Guardian, which is a very cumbersome and expensive process.

I suggest that you see if you can get her to see a local solicitor who will make their own judgement about whether she still has capacity to make an LPA. If there's any doubt at all, they won't do it.

So are you saying ..that if mum went before dad her 1/2 goes in trust for me and brothers and grandchildren...

And if dad needed care home they could only use 1/2 of the assets...well 1/2 of what was left ??

Eg house is £400,000

£200,000 goes into trust for us (because that is what she said in her will...and not pass it on to dad )

£200,000 is all that is left of dad's assets to put towards a care home ??

When dad dies we get the trust mum set up ?????

Hate talking about death /care homes/trusts ...but they worked soo hard their lives to leave us some money ....they would be gutted if I got this wrong

Wills are such an awwked thing to talk about in front of the "living"person and the "bank" person really did not want me in the room even though mum and dad said we need her (they really did not understand or in fact "want to understand "the jargoon)...they trust me.

Mumblechum, can I ask you a quick question on competency? My parents are both alive, but dad is very frail and is fretting that he'll die soon.
Mum has dementia and finds it very hard to understand what people are saying and has pretty much lost the ability to understand anything written now. But if you asked if Cmot could make decisions, she'd probably say yes as thats the default word.
Would she be classified as without competency? I don't want to push them to do an LPA if it'll end up that she isn't.

That would be the usual thing (giving everything to one another, and then on the second death, it goes to the three children).

If they're concerned about avoiding nursing home fees, obviously the above arrangement won't necessarily achieve that.

Thinking about it ....I am sure they passed each other's 1/2 to each other and we just went throug where "us 3 children's bit passed to if we died before them

Ie my share goes straight to my boys( div x3)

Bro 1 share ...me bro2 and my boys(divx5 )

Bro2 share ...me bro1 and my boys (divx5)

Thanks mumble...Wills were updated a few years ago...and I need to check if the other 1/2 's were given to each other or divided to us (3x children) and then sub divided to the 3 grand children via us children

IE bro1...no kids ..divorced/separated/married ..we dont know married in Italy but not registered here ?

Me...3 boys...separated ..but no official documents/court order

Bro 2..no kids...officially divorced

Need to look at them again...felt uncomfortable doing it with them at the time ...but now think I need to make this watertight ?

Thanks again ....popping over to small buisness's now !!!

Hi Bizzey, regarding your question about whether you could, on one of your parents' behalf, deal with their property to avoid care home fees, well, in theory you can, as long as they haven't put a restriction on the LPA, but in practice, local authorities are very savvy about this now and are likely to apply (and be successful) to set aside any transfers which have clearly been made to avoid care fees.

A better option may be for your parents to make wills in which they only grant one another a life interest in their home. That way, if one of them dies, the other doesn't inherit that person's share (it's held on trust for the benefit, usually, of the children), but if the surviving parent then has to go into a home, at least the LA can only attack that person's share of the value of the property, and the other half still goes to the children. If they did a life interest trust, they'd also have to sever the joint tenancy of their home. I know this may sound complicated, but severing a joint tenancy is a really straightforward job.

If you'd like more info (and btw my charges for the LPAs would be a lot less than you've been quoted!), you could have a look at my advert over on Classifieds>Small Business>5* Will Writing Service Recommended by Mumsnetters.

Thanks ...I got the form today from that link £500 +vat and £130 x 2 for 2x addmin./signing ?...(how much is VAT at the moment ?? )

The smiths pack was £29.99 btw !

Think I have got my head around it now ...just need to word it to my dad "very carefully" !!

My first instinct when POA was metioned to me was "nooo dad is fine with his money...pretty savvy and checks his statements with a fine tooth comb....but there have been a few times we have needed to talk to the bank or other people and he just cannot understand them/accents/press this number for this or that type of thing ..that he has wanted me to do .

I can't at my house so have to go to his ....do it there ...with him in the background saying "yes" just do as my daughter says....but that is inconvienient for both of us.

I am going to do mum as well I think as it will save us £300.

Funny enough she is the one that needs more help with her money !!!

Quick question mumble...If I am POA for both of them ...and dad needed a care home ..say in 10/15 years time would I be able to protect her share of the house and dads savings...so that everything did not go to care home ???

Ok maybe I haven't got my head around this POA thing if that is a stupid question !!!

Thanks

or get a lawyer to do it, or use a service such as mumblechum1's.

ahem, I am a qualified lawyer

The forms are indeed free to download from the OPG site, so anyone doing a DIY LPA would be wasting their money to pay for the Smiths pack.

I don't know that there is such a thing as DIY POA. At the end of the day it has to be done on the Office of the Public Guardian's forms, and registered with them. There is no legally recognised alternative. You can fill them in yourself, or get a lawyer to do it, or use a service such as mumblechum1's. You should not be having to buy forms though as they are sent out for free if you ring the OPG.