Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

I might be pro-Israel biased, but I don’t assume that people on the other side of the argument aren’t genuine posters. I’m also not calling for MN to rein them in just because I might disagree with them.

I understand that the conflict is very complex, but I see more “default” support for the Palestinian side. Palestinian flags displayed in windows, people claiming they’re against “Zionism”, people chanting “From the river to the sea”.

I believe that many people in Gaza simply want to live their lives, but I also can’t ignore the celebrations that took place on October 7th.
How can people rejoice seeing mutilated bodies of innocent people? How can they have a street party around the coffins of a mother and her two young children?

@OpenScroller and @inamarina ,

But I find both of you equally pro Israel biased. Have you ever posted or even accepted an anti Israel argument?

It’s been a brutal rivalry/hatred for over half a century and, for the most part, I have ‘supported’ Israel but have been able to see both sides. There is no question that Hamas would have genocided Israel had they been able and deserve whatever Israel does to them (within reason, I don’t approve of torture whatever anyone has done).

In Gaza, they haven’t had elections since 2006, and the average age of the population is 19. Even when they were elected in 2006, it was a bought election by Iran in many ways. Hamas were voted for on a domestic agenda, and then it turned out that they cared more about hurting Israel and Jews than helping their own population.

However, your average Palestinian just wants to live their life, have an opportunity for an education and a career, same as everyone else. And, Israel. supposedly a liberal democracy and our ally, has prevented this from happening,

You have to pay attention to Smotrich (finance minister) and Ben G’vir (Security Minister) here. Netanyahu chose to form a coalition including their two parties which are basically racist by charter. They both advocate for ‘greater Israel’ and expelling the Arab population.

In a way, you could see 7/10 as a victory for extremists on both sides. For Hamas, they get to pursue their nihilistic agenda and maybe will meet some nice virgins some time soon, as well as getting the world on their side. For the extremist zionists, this is a perfect excuse to expand into ‘Greater Israel’. Meanwhile it radicalises both populations and sets any meaningful and rational solution back years.

But who can the western world influence and change? Well it won’t be Iran and her many proxies, as we are seeing in real time. But Israel? Does it want to become a pariah nation and can it choose a more merciful and decent path? Definitely. Ultimately, I suspect, for most of the Jewish world the victory Israel is now winning is a pyrrhic one. They are selling out decent Jewish values for victory on an unequal battlefield.

Which is why, as a Jew, I will continue to call out the behaviour of Netanyahu and his cronies, as every decent person will, notwithstanding that their choices have been difficult. Regardless of who started the killings, ethnic cleansing is never OK. And for me, the Gazans compressed into 40% of Gaza, with no return date, the continued settler harassment and the ‘buffer zone’ in Lebanon which some are already calling for settle, can’t really be thought of as anything else. We need to make Israel here us and take us seriously and sanctions are a good way of doing it (possibly the only way).

It just exposes the completely illogical mindset though doesn't it?

Who could seriously think Palestinians were victims after Oct 7th?

Of course not all of them took part in it, but there was a massive amount of celebration and support of it, Israeli hostages were kept in civilian homes, so many 'civilians' have been outed as terrorists, and many Gazans would vote in Hamas again.

Their kids attend terrorist training 'summer camps' FFS!

It also completely validates Israel's position IMO.

It's fascinating how some people seem to find any deviation from the 'Israel = evil / Palestine = innocent and oppressed' binary so unfathomable.
They seem to assume that anyone expressing such views can't be a genuine poster, or that they have to be reined in by MN
The CITME board has been predominantly pro-Palestine for years, so if anyone voices a different view some people seem genuinely astounded.

You find it 'offensive' to support Israel and you want MN to police threads to make sure no one does?

At least you're honest I suppose!

Probably referring to threads where posters are challenging the anti-Israel rhetoric that has pretty much ruled on MN for the last 3 years, and been more open about not seeing Palestinians as the victims in all this with Israelis/Jews supposed to feel sorry for them despite Palestinians taking part in and celebrating Oct 7th, and vowing to repeat it again and again.

That will make people 'turn against Jews' apparently because of course people supporting Israel/Jews makes pro-Palestinians angry and therefore puts Jews at risk!

I can smell the stench of @SmallDFartyCarNRGfrom here.

Which specific threads are you referring to?

I would like to think these threads are not started by genuine people as their views are so offensive. I'm deeply disappointed that Mumsnet is consistently willing to let these threads stand while deleting posts like "I find your attitude appalling" on the basis that it breaks talk guidelines.

As someone who knowingly included demonic terrorists and also civilians who took part in Oct 7th atrocities (as well as non conflict related deaths) in '76K counts' I think it's blatantly clear who is posting in poor faith.

As well as your admission that debating facts turns people against Jews!

Thank you for this. I do wonder if these threads are rage bait by groups effectively trying to turn people against Jews - there are so many of them and they always fail to actually listen or admit any fault, ignore the fact Israel is conflating their religion and the genocide itself and just attempt to belittle anyone who doesn't see them as the saviours. It is like they are trying to wind people up. I won't continue as I am not convinced it isn't designed that way in poor faith.

Really, everyone?
I know what the definition of genocide is btw.

Sane people not blinded by hate... righto, ones who can see on the news and know their own mental health is stable aren't your definition of sane and Israel's actions aren't blinded by hate. Of course.

As I said if one side is always right then there is no discussion. You have answered the OP with it will never be a Jewish issue or an Israeli one, they are faultless. Everyone else has it wrong.

Those 76K people include combatants. Do they count? Are you sad about them dying?

Hamas is paying pensions to 50K 'war widows' btw.

The death toll also includes non-conflict related deaths (15-18K), executions by Hamas and tribal wars, and Palestinians killed by misfired rockets, IED boobytraps and landmines. Thought to be in the thousands.

The only evidenced genocide that has taken place in this conflict was Oct 7th in Israel.

Genocide is the intentional and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

That is exactly what Palestinians intentionally did that day. It doesn't matter that only 1200 people were slaughtered or that other international citizens were slaughtered just because they were in Israel.

The actions of the IDF in Gaza could not be termed as genocide, no matter how loosely you want to apply the definition.

Sane people, not blinded by hate, can see that.

Increasingly everyone else is in agreement on genocide, yes.
We visited Nurnberg last year and there is a very clear definition.
Genocide is the intentional and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. 1]
According to the United Nations Genocide Convention of 1948, the crime of genocide involves specific acts committed with the explicit intent to destroy these protected group

76k people counts.

Does ‘the rest of the world’ have an unanimous opinion?

I do think the Jews need a safe Jewish homeland and that, regardless of how it came into being, everyone needs to accept Israel is here to stay.

I do think the Palestinians were hard done by and have a legitimate grievance.

There is also the reality on the ground, that has to be recognised.

So, how do you reconcile the above?

The international community should put pressure on Israel not to expand and further. They have no need of it and it is illegal under international law. Everyone needs to start talking seriously about a comprehensive and permanent two state solution. That should include Israel withdrawing from some more recent settlements. They have done this before.

Maximalist demands about sharing the land equally and Palestine having an army are pointless and a distraction. You might as well say that Native Americans should share New York 50/50 and raise an army. It’s just not going to happen.

Equally, Israeli maximalist demands of settling Gaza or the West Bank should be strongly deterred by the western world. There is no realistic argument for them gaining this land.

Israel needs to understand that encouraging trade and joint venture with a (quasi) independent (as in no army) Palestine is the best way to ensure no terrorism and an end to perpetual army service for their youth. Rich people who cooperate with each other are unlikely to fight. Look at the EU, a war seems almost inconceivable now.

And maybe one day there could be a voluntary union between Palestine and Israel and one army for all. Seems idealistic, but who would have thought about Germany and France discussing a joint army in 1946. These things take time and realism.

You really believe the Israelis ever had any intention of living with the Palestinians? I do not believe you do any more than I do or anyone else who knows about the history of the conflict. Plan Dalet did not finish, it is still ongoing.

Lol you think it wasn't poor leadership from Al Hussaini all through that period? The offer was as clean as any of that time. You think Palestinians wouldn't be way better off now had they accepted any of the offers made over the last 100 years? You think any plan has worked out well for them?

Of course the Zionists rejected it!!! They got no state, contrary to the Balf Dec, they'd live with an Arab majority with whom there was already increasing violence, and the cap on immigration would have signed the death warrant for many Jews in Europe.

It was vastly more advantageous to the Palestinian Arabs than the Palestinian Jews.

You are so keen to completely absolve anyone Palestinian for any responsibility, yet so keen to hold every single Israeli morally culpable.

I hope you see it one day, I really do.

Btw your last post reads like AI.

The argument that the 1939 White Paper was a clean offer of statehood rejected out of pure spite completely distorts history.

From the Palestinian perspective, Britain had promised them independence. Why should an indigenous population be forced by a colonial power to surrender portions of their promised future country to waves of European immigration, simply because of British geopolitical maneuvering. No population on earth would willingly accept a foreign empire dictating that they should simply give up land they had been promised. Additionally it wasn't a concrete treaty anyway. It was a conditional policy which would have delayed independence for another decade. Given Britain's long track record of broken promises in the region, the Palestinian population had zero reason to trust that independence would ever actually materialize.

More importantly, if rejecting the White Paper is proof of bad leadership, then you have to apply that standard to both sides. The Zionist leadership under Ben-Gurion also completely rejected the 1939 White Paper and launched an armed insurgency against the British to fight it.

And before.

The 1939 White Paper proposed one state for both peoples, limiting Jewish immigration to 75k over 5 years ( a drop in the ocean compared to how many were subsequently slaughtered in Europe ) and restricting Arab land sales to Jews. It would have been an Arab state with Jews in it.

The Mufti rejected it because he didn't want Jews there at all.

Theres rather a pattern of terrible Palestinian leadership rejecting each offer as each offer gets worse and worse... and Palestinian life gets worse and worse...

You'd think there was a lesson to be learned.

Many times? I can think of one other, Olmert's bullshit offer. Which others are there.

I'm saying what I said before, Palestinians have turned down offers of a 2 state solution many times.
Since 1947 actually.

You neglect to mention the Russians.
It was in Arafat's interest to refuse the offer, keeping Russia happy and Israel pre-occupied with it all.