Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

I am saying if you don't understand the meaning of a word or belief you really shouldn't be using word or talking about it. There are other wasn't to express yourself or state your case without being offensive or prejudice towards others

Terrible example

Islamism stems from the quranic belief/teachings that everyone and every land should be ruled be Islam and Islam should be in every aspect of all peoples lives.

Totally different from the meaning of zionism which is just one aspect of Judaism and about Jewish people only.

I think you could argue the case for similarities between Islamism and Judaism as a whole but there are some fundamental big differences in world view and how Jews view free will or disagreeing views about their beliefs.

The right wing use it as a slur.

I didn't get a chance earlier to properly respond to this, but I want to address the points raised.

What does Islam have to do with any of this, and why does religion even matter here? The UK has decided to take a stance to protect the West Bank from illegal Israeli settlers who are colonising the area. This has been an illegal annexation since 1967. Framing this as a religious issue completely distracts from the core violation of international law.

Furthermore, this is not about antisemitis, no one hates Jewish people. The issue is a deep disapproval of a racist leader who is being permitted to ethnically cleanse a minority population; a population that has every right to exist on their own land. Any group of people has a fundamental right to defend themselves when facing such an existential threat.

People also tend to forget that the UK is the one that started this mess in the first place. The British government drew arbitrary borders in the region and then bailed - the exact same thing they did in India.

The original comment calls this a "shameful moment" and claims it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel. But why should anyone want to maintain close relations with a state that repeatedly ignores international law? In terms of disregarding global legal standards, they are no different from the Taliban or ISIS.

Well that's good to see

Reposting this reply as I buggered up my quoting so it’s confusing.

I don’t follow your analogy. We are not talking about telling anyone to stop doing anything. We are talking about a the meaning of a specific word.

If particular ethnic group who mostly believe in environmentalism had a specific word which was used for their environmentalism beliefs which was not used in any other context, and this group were engaging in eco-terrorism, that word would soon become generally used to mean the eco-terrorist activities they carry out.

Another example is Islamism. A dictionary definition is

Islamism is a political and religious belief that Islam should guide social, legal, and political systems.

So a belief.

Does everyone with that belief carry out Islamist terrorism? No.

Do they all support Islamist terrorism? No.

Does society generally use the word to mean the belief only, or the belief plus actions associated with up to and including Islamist terrorism? The later.

Is it islamophopic to use Islamist in this way? I don’t believe it is. Do you?

So essentially you are saying it’s “Jew hate” to be anti Zionist.

I never said I think these beliefs are the belief of all Jews. You’ve made that up.

It’s a bit much to get outraged about me being patronising given the tone in which you are responding to me.

Antifa is not a belief it's an organisation. What you're doing is saying that environmentalism is bad, and when people question you on it you say "stop pretending that environmentalism is about protecting the environment when it actually means engaging in eco-terrorism". Except in this case there's a particular ethnic group who mostly believe on environmentalism that you're smearing.

I don’t follow your analogy. We are not talking about telling anyone to stop doing anything. We are talking about a the meaning of a specific word.

If particular ethnic group who mostly believe in environmentalism had a specific word which was used for their environmentalism beliefs which was not used in any other context, and this group were engaging in eco-terrorism, that word would soon become generally used to mean the eco-terrorist activities they carry out.

Zionism is a belief. You can't just make up definitions of words and pretend it's a difference of opinion. Like I said gaslighting 101.

And the vast majority of zionists are not currently killing gazans so your "many" comment is pretty dodgy too.

And I know what an analogy is, no need to be so fucking patronising.

It was an analogy. As I’m sure you’re aware, analogies are not saying two things are identical in all ways. They are about comparing a certain aspect of two things.

But this is the crux of the disagreement. You believe zionism is a belief. I believe zionism is frequently used to mean the actions that many (not all) of the holders of that belief carry out.

It’s not about what I personally believe zionism. It’s about what the word means and how it is used.

You can insinuate I’m a terrible person for this disagreement if you want. That’s not an argument.

Many people use the word zionism. Both pro and anti zionist people use it. Me stopping using the word zionism will not stop other people using the word and will not suddenly make its meaning simple and uncontroversial.

Personally I do rarely use the word as I prefer to be clearer in what I say so I agree with you to that extent.

But this particular discussion started because pp said anti-zionism is antisemitism. One can’t use a word to attack people and then demand that they don’t use the word or discuss its meaning.

I don’t understand your point I’m afraid. Who is using Antifa as a slur? Antifa call themselves Antifa.

Antifa is not a belief it's an organisation. What you're doing is saying that environmentalism is bad, and when people question you on it you say "stop pretending that environmentalism is about protecting the environment when it actually means engaging in eco-terrorism". Except in this case there's a particular ethnic group who mostly believe on environmentalism that you're smearing.

It's nothing less than gaslighting. It's twisted.

Oh and this

If you want to stop the complication as you put it them stop using the word zionist, especially if you don't know what the word or belief actually means

It really is that simple

Rather than the very tiresome for everyone "zionist this and zionism that" talk straight about what you mean. Israeli government, Israeli politicians, settlement supporters and settlers etc. Anything else just make people look like they want to say Jews but are hiding it.

Really no reason for people to keep up the evil Z stuff apart from to wind up others or hide their own prejudice for fear of being called out on it or other consequences of racist rhetoric eg site bans, losing job or even possible arrest if promotions physical action against a minority group in the UK

No you cant wrap everything up in the banner of antizionism. The only thing zionists agree on is the existence of Israel. There is no 'current manifestation of zionism'. If you object to a particular government policy you say so. Be specific. There is no legitimate motivation in trying to tar all zionist Jews with the same brush.

Quote "“How can you be anti Antifa? Antifa literally means anti-fascist. You must be a fascist to oppose Antifa”."

I say that. And that makes me antifa. I am anti fascist. But that does not make me some sort of antifa protestor or activist. Just because people are trying to use "antifa" as a slur, does not change what it actually means.

The same way the word Zionist, does not automatically mean armed settlers taking over Palestinian land.

@LandLaser and @SharonEllis I disagree with you both.

It is a technique used to try to make a complicated situation seem simple and as if criticism of zionism, as it currently manifests itself, is inherently antisemitic.

The best analogy I can think of is people who say “How can you be anti Antifa? Antifa literally means anti-fascist. You must be a fascist to oppose Antifa”.

Well, Zionism is believing there should be a Jewish state, specifically where it is now. For me, there is a state of Israel, and it is where it is, and personally I think it should continue to exist, so therefore I am a Zionist.

I do not think the state should expand by taking over more land etc, it should stay within it's borders, according to whatever treaty applies.

If I was anti Zionist, then I would believe in the opposite of that,

I think language and definitions matter. And the title of this thread is an example.

"Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists "

It looks very much to me that the word " Islamists " is intended as some sort of slur. And we are all familiar with that.* *What it actually means is someone who follows Islam. But some people conflate it to mean other things. And it is wrong to do that. So to me, Zionism should be given the same respect.

If that makes sense.

It has never meant opposing the actions of zionists. A zionist just believes in the self determination of the Jewish people. A zionist could be a thief. Their thieving would be bad. Their zionism would not.

But that is what it means. You can't just rewrite the definition of words to suit yohr narrative.

I find it rather tiring that people are pretending that anti-zionism always means “believing the state of Israel should not exist” rather than what it is usually used to mean, “opposing the actions of zionists”.

It is Jew hating to spout stuff about Jewish beliefs when you don't know anything about said belief and haven't done any research

Disagreeing with a Jew is not the issue

Jews disagree with Jews

1. Would you make ill informed statements about any other groups beliefs

1. Would you cast a sweeping statement about any other group in general

Those are the questions only you can ask yourself because when the majority of Jews believe in zionism can you not see why people may feel you just don't like Jews rather than be making a statement about Israel politics etc