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Conflict in the Middle East

I think a lot of people misunderstand this aspect of the situation re why civilians are staying in Gaza

166 replies

Jane3212 · 08/09/2026 17:33

I've seen quite a few posts on Mumsnet and elsewhere asking why Gazans with dependent children are staying there despite the danger, some speculating that it's due to Hamas brainwashing to stay no matter what danger and become martyrs.

But that completely ignores that the Rafah Crossing for various reasons has been closed from 2024 and is only partially open now. The huge amount of crowdfunding campaigns to get into Egypt suggest to me that a lot of Gazans DO want to leave while the fighting continues, and do want to protect their children. It's not their fault that this is extremely difficult.

OP posts:
Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 17:22

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 17:08

It is clear Germany started WW2

Maybe in your mind, but history says different.

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 17:20

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I'm beginning to wonder....

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 17:19

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 17:11

Whatever. They didn’t start the 1967 war with an ‘unprovoked attack on Israel’ as you originally posted. Glad you’re being pulled up on your parallel universe history.

So you don't think Egypt's actions amounted to an Act of War ? Well Israel did.
Viewing these combined actions as a direct casus belli (an act of war), Israel launched a pre-emptive Six-Day War strike on Egyptian airfields on June 5, 1967
And please stop with your snippy remarks, which just go to show you don't understand the chronology of events.

SigmundinaCafe · 22/09/2026 17:14

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SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 17:11

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 17:06

I think Egypt's actions went a bit beyond "strained diplomatic relations".

Whatever. They didn’t start the 1967 war with an ‘unprovoked attack on Israel’ as you originally posted. Glad you’re being pulled up on your parallel universe history.

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 17:08

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:55

No need to get snippy.
Lets look at some facts.
The major reason for the Second World War was the Allies' failure to stop Hitler's aggression through their policy of appeasement. In 1935, Hitler reintroduced conscription. Then, on March 7, 1936, he remilitarised the Rhineland. Despite these actions violating the Treaty of Versailles, the Allies did nothing, hoping that giving Hitler what he wanted would prevent future aggression. However, this inaction had the opposite effect.
In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria.
The Sudetenland, a region of Czechoslovakia that contained mostly German speakers, was then annexed in the autumn of 1938, * followed by an invasion of the rest of the country in early 1939.
Don't forget Neville Chamberlain famously declared "peace for our time" on September 30, 1938,* after returning from signing the Munich Agreement with Adolf Hitler this was after Hitler had annexed Sudetenland.
Ultimately, the invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, was the final straw for the Allies, with France and the United Kingdom (UK) declaring war on Germany days later.

It is clear Germany started WW2

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 17:06

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 16:53

Strained diplomatic relations isn’t starting a war, it is just a matter of fact that whoever attacks first is the one who started the war.

I think Egypt's actions went a bit beyond "strained diplomatic relations".

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 17:04

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 16:51

When Yasser Arafat coined PLO he was using an older term for the region that predated the Ottoman Empire name of the Levant. Palestina- the Roman province. We sometimes hear Iranians and Iraqis refer to themselves as Persians. So the name for the land did exist long before the PLO came into being.

Much like many Israelis call the West Bank Judea and Samaria as those are older names for the same land.

Britain was once called Albion.

Yes, the Romans renamed the region of Judea (the ancestral land of the Jewish people) to Syria Palaestina in 135 CE.
Following the suppression of the Bar Kokhba Revolt (a major Jewish rebellion against Roman rule), Emperor Hadrian sought to punish the local Jewish population.
The Romans wanted to break the historical and religious connection between the Jewish people and the land by officially removing the name "Judaea" (meaning "Land of the Jews").
They adopted "Palaestina"—derived from the Philistines, an ancient coastal rival of the Israelites from biblical times—and combined it with Syria to form Syria Palaestina. - so basically it was an insult.

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:55

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 16:42

I don’t know what history book you are reading but it must be something like How the British caused all the Wars.

Germany started WW2 by invading Poland. That was the act of war that started the war. UK and France simply announced the fact that due to Germany invading Poland, we were now at war with Germany. The Germans knew we were allies with Poland and had pledged military support in the event Polanf were attacked.

No need to get snippy.
Lets look at some facts.
The major reason for the Second World War was the Allies' failure to stop Hitler's aggression through their policy of appeasement. In 1935, Hitler reintroduced conscription. Then, on March 7, 1936, he remilitarised the Rhineland. Despite these actions violating the Treaty of Versailles, the Allies did nothing, hoping that giving Hitler what he wanted would prevent future aggression. However, this inaction had the opposite effect.
In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria.
The Sudetenland, a region of Czechoslovakia that contained mostly German speakers, was then annexed in the autumn of 1938, * followed by an invasion of the rest of the country in early 1939.
Don't forget Neville Chamberlain famously declared "peace for our time" on September 30, 1938,* after returning from signing the Munich Agreement with Adolf Hitler this was after Hitler had annexed Sudetenland.
Ultimately, the invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, was the final straw for the Allies, with France and the United Kingdom (UK) declaring war on Germany days later.

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 16:53

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:42

But Egypt were already mobilising their forces.
Historians debate whether Egypt was actively planning an immediate invasion in May and June 1967, but Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser's escalating military steps and explicit threats created an imminent danger that led Israel to launch a preemptive strike.

Key Actions Leading to the War;-
Expulsion of UN Forces: Nasser ordered the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) out of the Sinai Peninsula on May 16, 1967.

Blockade of the Straits of Tiran: Egypt closed the straits to Israeli shipping on May 22, cutting off Israel’s southern oil supply and primary sea route to Asia, which Israel officially considered an act of war.

Military Buildup: Egypt mobilized roughly 100,000 troops and hundreds of tanks in the Sinai Peninsula directly on Israel's border.

Alliances: Egypt signed a mutual defense pact with Jordan on May 30 and placed Jordanian and Syrian forces under Egyptian military coordination.

Inflammatory Rhetoric:* *Nasser and other Arab leaders publicly stated their goal to eliminate Israel, raising fears of an impending multi-front assault.

Strained diplomatic relations isn’t starting a war, it is just a matter of fact that whoever attacks first is the one who started the war.

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 16:51

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:32

Palestinans didn't exist until 1964 when the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organisation). was founded.
Prior to that they were ethnically classed as Syrians or Arabs.
Have a look at the flag of Palestine and note how similar it is to the flag of Syria.

Edited

When Yasser Arafat coined PLO he was using an older term for the region that predated the Ottoman Empire name of the Levant. Palestina- the Roman province. We sometimes hear Iranians and Iraqis refer to themselves as Persians. So the name for the land did exist long before the PLO came into being.

Much like many Israelis call the West Bank Judea and Samaria as those are older names for the same land.

Britain was once called Albion.

Vargas · 22/09/2026 16:46

DebbieSavage · 22/09/2026 16:08

You don't know that for sure. Have you been to any African countries? I have. They aren't how they are portrayed in Western media that's for sure. Homophobia isn't even a thing there, you can be with whoever you want.

Are you serious? Homosexuality is illegal in 33 African states, and 5 have the death penalty as the ultimate punishment. I have been to some African countries but I'm married and straight so it would hardly affect me would it? Ask any of your gay friends if they would hold hands or kiss their partner in public in Uganda.

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:42

But Egypt were already mobilising their forces.
Historians debate whether Egypt was actively planning an immediate invasion in May and June 1967, but Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser's escalating military steps and explicit threats created an imminent danger that led Israel to launch a preemptive strike.

Key Actions Leading to the War;-
Expulsion of UN Forces: Nasser ordered the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) out of the Sinai Peninsula on May 16, 1967.

Blockade of the Straits of Tiran: Egypt closed the straits to Israeli shipping on May 22, cutting off Israel’s southern oil supply and primary sea route to Asia, which Israel officially considered an act of war.

Military Buildup: Egypt mobilized roughly 100,000 troops and hundreds of tanks in the Sinai Peninsula directly on Israel's border.

Alliances: Egypt signed a mutual defense pact with Jordan on May 30 and placed Jordanian and Syrian forces under Egyptian military coordination.

Inflammatory Rhetoric:* *Nasser and other Arab leaders publicly stated their goal to eliminate Israel, raising fears of an impending multi-front assault.

SummerFeverVenice · 22/09/2026 16:42

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:24

Can I remind you that we (UK) declared war on Germany after they invaded Poland ? Prior to that Hitler didn't have any plans in our direction.
Does that sit OK with you?
Germany didn't start WW2, we did, by declaring war on Germany when they invaded Poland

I don’t know what history book you are reading but it must be something like How the British caused all the Wars.

Germany started WW2 by invading Poland. That was the act of war that started the war. UK and France simply announced the fact that due to Germany invading Poland, we were now at war with Germany. The Germans knew we were allies with Poland and had pledged military support in the event Polanf were attacked.

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:32

Squeezingwildoranges · 22/09/2026 13:10

@GetBernie, And yet Israel and Jews, who are main targets of that terror are expected to do what Egypt and Jordan will not??? The Palestinians had been living as the majority in the land for centuries, well before Herzl or Israel was even a concept. The only thing the world is expecting Israel to try and do is to ethnically cleanse the land.

Palestinans didn't exist until 1964 when the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organisation). was founded.
Prior to that they were ethnically classed as Syrians or Arabs.
Have a look at the flag of Palestine and note how similar it is to the flag of Syria.

Tiredtaxpayer · 22/09/2026 16:24

Steve3742 · 22/09/2026 11:05

In other words, Israel started the 1967 war and seized territory from the countries it attacked. Be honest about this. Of course, they claim they were about to be attacked, but every country that starts a war claims this. Including Nazi Germany, which went to the trouble of faking an attack on one of its communication towers in order to claim to be acting in "self defence" when it invaded Poland, starting the Second World War.

Can I remind you that we (UK) declared war on Germany after they invaded Poland ? Prior to that Hitler didn't have any plans in our direction.
Does that sit OK with you?
Germany didn't start WW2, we did, by declaring war on Germany when they invaded Poland

GetBernie · 22/09/2026 16:18

I know a Palastinian man who is gay and he has never had any problems from anyone where he was from. The only abuse about his sexuality he ever got was from white British heterosexual Christian men.

Sorry but this is absolute horseshit. In the UK and most liberal western counties he is free to walk about as gay as he likes, get married to a man and he'll be protected in law even if he encounters the odd arsehole. I have spend quite a few years living in a very conservative Muslim country and while it's true that being gay is often privately tolerated to some degree (by which I mean reluctantly accepted but not openly acknowledged, embraced, celebrated or freely talked about) gay people are expected to keep quiet about it and not 'parade it about' publicly. It's seen as a weakness, a source of shame and embarrassment, an indulgent kink or a perversion. A gay man would still be expected to marry, appear straight and keep his dirty little dalliances for recreational purposes only. And they better make sure they don't get caught and made an example of. Every gay encounter must feel like Russian Roulette. Very much like it was in this country up until probably the 70s or 80s. Except that with Islam being what it is, the cultural attitude in Islamic countries is unlikely to change.

Gay rape is also commonly used as a form of bullying and power play in Islamic cultures as well.

If your friend never got abused for being gay in his home country it's not because of how wonderfully tolerant they all were. It's because he was never able to be openly gay to start with.

If he wants to put it to the test though, then let him. He can document the whole thing on Tiktok. Tell him to go Afghanistan, Gaza, Saudi or Iran and parade up and down being openly and proudly gay, and we'll see how he gets on.

runfromthecrushingtide · 22/09/2026 16:12

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WTF is a zionist zombie?

DebbieSavage · 22/09/2026 16:08

Vargas · 22/09/2026 14:48

I can and will point the finger. I have two gay family members and let me tell you this for free: they'd a million times rather be living in the UK than in any Muslim country or in any of the homophobic African ones. You are talking rubbish. Try reading the FCDO advice for LGB people travelling to any Middle Eastern country that isn't Israel.

You don't know that for sure. Have you been to any African countries? I have. They aren't how they are portrayed in Western media that's for sure. Homophobia isn't even a thing there, you can be with whoever you want.

Steve3742 · 22/09/2026 15:12

Vargas · 22/09/2026 14:48

I can and will point the finger. I have two gay family members and let me tell you this for free: they'd a million times rather be living in the UK than in any Muslim country or in any of the homophobic African ones. You are talking rubbish. Try reading the FCDO advice for LGB people travelling to any Middle Eastern country that isn't Israel.

Sure. But is there a point to all this?
And, it should be noted, Israel isn't immune from homophobia, certainly a lot of the Jewish fundamentalist sects are deeply homophobic (and misogynist). It goes hand in hand with Jewish Supremacist views and the extreme racism that accompanies that. And these sects have huge influence on the Israeli government at the moment, and have always had large amounts of influence.

For its part, Israeli homophobia and racism work hand in hand to oppress the Palestinians. It's a common tactic for terrorist groups like Mossad to threaten to out Palestinian homosexuals if they don't become an Israeli asset and informant. This has been done on occasions (ie Mossad or other terrorists like Army Intelligence, have outed the gay Palestinian). And you can't get much more homophobic than endangering a gay man's life because of his homosexuality.

Steve3742 · 22/09/2026 15:05

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Steve3742 · 22/09/2026 15:01

GetBernie · 22/09/2026 13:20

You are wrong. Stop twisting history to fit your own agenda.

He's not, though.

Vargas · 22/09/2026 14:48

DebbieSavage · 22/09/2026 13:16

Exactly. Gay people are still discriminated against to this day in the UK, we can hardly point the finger at any other country and demand they 'do better.'

I know a Palastinian man who is gay and he has never had any problems from anyone where he was from. The only abuse about his sexuality he ever got was from white British heterosexual Christian men.

I can and will point the finger. I have two gay family members and let me tell you this for free: they'd a million times rather be living in the UK than in any Muslim country or in any of the homophobic African ones. You are talking rubbish. Try reading the FCDO advice for LGB people travelling to any Middle Eastern country that isn't Israel.

Vargas · 22/09/2026 14:44

Squeezingwildoranges · 22/09/2026 14:41

I know. Sorry. It's just I get frustrated with people saying they can go here or there while ignoring the fact that Israel is illegally and immorally ethnically cleansing them from their internationally recognised land and the international community does nothing about it.

What do you think Israel should have done after October 7th? Genuine question.

Squeezingwildoranges · 22/09/2026 14:41

Doubleknow · 22/09/2026 14:02

This is peak MN, fighting against something that isn't there. I clearly said 'if that's what they want'. I haven't said anything about "making" them refugees, only that if they want to leave it's probably not easy. I was sympathising with the Paelstinians.

I know. Sorry. It's just I get frustrated with people saying they can go here or there while ignoring the fact that Israel is illegally and immorally ethnically cleansing them from their internationally recognised land and the international community does nothing about it.