Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

So you think its wrong for Palestinians to be collectively blamed and punished for October 7 yes?

Then why are you asking if its appropriate to blame Israelis for hypothetically cleansing Palestinians? Surely, by your own argument, it would be wrong?

Can't you see your own double standards?

( And by the way, if Palestinians had truly been collectively punished for October 7, then there would have been no attempt to separate those responsible Hamas from those not responsible civilians. And there was effort to separate the two. Effort made by Israel. Not Hamas. Obviously, if Israel had been trying to kill both as many Hamas and as many civilians as possible there would habe been vastly more civilian casualties. That would truly have been a genocide. So that argument doesnt work either does it. )

Absolutely.

Your obsessed with therr being a magic percentage yet won't give one yourself. I'm guessing it will be slightly above whatever percentage of Israelis do protest.

I bet if this thread was started about any other demographic @mnhq would pull it.

Yes we can all see clearly you want to hold all Israelis 'culpable'. That has been obvious from the beginning. Your meanderings and obfuscations across the thread haven't added anything 'philosophical' or 'interesting' to your basic position.

You'd judge the voters, so would I. But you wouldn't judge those who voted for the opposing side or every person of that population without specifically knowing their position, right?

Thats how I would feel too.

Sounds like you're keen to blame Israelis for something that hasn't even taken place... while refusing to consider examples of wrongs by Palestinian leadership that definitely have taken place..

We know you don't hold ordinary Palestinians culpable for October 7. Neither do we. So why are you discussing holding Israelis culpable for a hypothetical that hasnt even happened?

Can't you see how obvious you're being?

Also I would say the Gazans have been collectively punished
Yes I would agree with this and they still are

I do not believe any civilian population should be held accountable for the actions of their elected representatives and even less so in countries where the civilian population do not get the choose them. If however Ben Gvir, Smotrich, Netanyahu get reelected I will absolutely judge those voters for that because they voted with their eyes wide open knowing what they were voting for, but that is as far culpability should go, judgement.

I did.

You've taken no position yourself. You've discussed possible numbers but haven't said which you agree with. You're asking people what they think but being elusive about what you think.

Basically, I think you're dressing up your obviously prejudiced position as a philosophical argument.

Others have clearly stated their position. No, a population is never to be held responsible for the actions of its government. And that goes for all people everywhere in the world. Palestinians and Israelis among everyone else.

Where a whole population of civilians is collectively punished for the actions of its government, a morally indefensible action has taken place.

It's harder to tease out what is collective punishment and what is unintended and unavoidable consequences yes.

But its surely simple enough to take a moral position that whole populations are not responsible for the actions of their governments.

No you haven't. You seem to be the only person who thinks there is an 'interesting discussion' to be had whereby you can hold all Israelis responsible for something you disagree with. whereas the rest of seem to have some moral clarity about the rights and wrongs of collective blame, whether its Palestinians or Israelis.

So you are asking us all a question you won't answer yourself?

Are you saying there is some figure but you personally don't know what it is?

Some polls found that 72% of Palestinians felt that the attack of 7 October was the correct thing to do.

Should we hold all Palestinians culpable? I don't think we should. I think we should hold those who commited the attack culpable. What about you?

Surely if we hold Palestinians as a whole culpable then that is collective blame, justifying collective punishment. I don't believe you think Israel would be justified in holding all Palestinians culpable at all.

So why are you asking if we should hold all Israelis culpable?

Can you clarify your position?

And lots of people think its morally wrong to hold a whole population responsible for the actions of its government. Apart from you. So we are asking you what % of the population has to be in active support of a specific policy for you to feel its morally appropriate to hold the whole population culpable?

You didn't commit yourself to a figure.

So come on, its your thread. What % Israelis voting for BenGivr et al would you think sufficient to be morally correct to blame Israel as a whole?

What are you getting out of flogging this dead horse @Squeezingwildoranges - why don't you just get on with it and be explicit about the point you are trying to make?

Where?

What nonsense.