Middle East conflict and whether Western blame oversimplifies its causes

Was just going to say if no one has (havent read the whole thread) that there is a good Triggernometry with him which Ive just started (2 + hours so watching in stages!). He is very knowledgeable and talks without notes. I already know more about the Ottoman Empire, Muslim BH etc. His book looks great.

Its completely a cultural and political thing. Australia has a stronger claim to be part of The West than Russia.

Being "'western" is a cultural as much as geographical thing and Russia is certainly not considered to be part of the West culturally.

I wonder if you know any Russians or Poles? I've known quite a few and they all had quite a strong sense of the 'otherness' of 'The West'. They may feel European now (I don't think those I knew in the Soviet Union did - it was so obvious it was not something we talked about), but 'The West' is not the same thing.

Your example of Poland only serves to highlight your confusion by the way. I know nothing whatever about Slovakia so I couldn't say.

You can argue these individual points all you like, and its a perfectly legitimate thing to do, but the general consensus here and there has always been, and remains, that Russia is not part of the West. Im sorry you dont like it but its a really basic fact.

No, you are the one in error (yet again)

The Enlightenment took hold there as much as it did in say Poland or Slovakia (the West)

Communism is a western theory and idea from Germany (the West)

Their Orthodox Christianity was adopted directly from Greece(the West)

Serfdom is a type of slavery where the slave is part of real property instead of to personal property (chattel slavery). Russia had both. Slavery both serfdom and chattel slavery existed in the West in the 19th c. outside Russia.

i have to run,

No, the Early Moden period is not part of the Modern period. The main cultural point of the early modern period is that it is pre Enlightenment- which has quite a big impact on cultural and political concepts like what dictatorship looked like - rather than post Enlightenment, which is often regarded as one of the key markers of modernity.

This is the basic historical error that requires correction. Russia is not The West. Despite periods of western influence and engagement it has never been widely considered to be part of the West. So what if some Romanovs married European royalty & aristocracy? They were very far removed from the regular population.
Nobody said it was Asian - here or anywhere else. It has always been considered a uniquely Eurasian culture. Despite Catherine the Great's best efforts the Enlightenment never took hold in Russia, Russian culture is rooted in Eastern Orthodox, not Catholicism and Protestantism. Its culturally distinct and self consciously so. As for politics and government it has never been Western, the Romanovs were far more dictatorial, serfdom remained in Russia well into the 19th century. There is no liberal democratic tradition in Russia and communists explicitly rejected Western liberalism. As I said before what on earth do you think the Cold War was about. The Russians do not think of themselves as The West.

I do not think it, it was taught as part of my officer training in military history.
There is alot of evidence of this in military history books. Russia and Iran have long had close connections diplomatically and in regards to military and geopolitical matters.

Russia is considered to be part of the West. Culturally they are European. They are a Slavic culture which is the West and spans much of Eastern Europe.

Geographically, the majority of the population of Russia is within the continent of Europe.

Their royal family intermarried with European royal families, which brought much the same cultural influences and technologies.

Their alphabet, language, food, clothing, government systems are all Western.

They may not be the best of the West, but they are not an Asian culture or country.

😂 Early Modern Period is still part of the Modern Period.

Besides, I did not bring up Cromwell, someone other than the two of us did.

But you were the one claiming:
Er, no, Cromwell was NOT a brutal dictator in England

Which was basic historical error that required correction.

It's a slow read but I will let you know what I think when I finish it. We went to book event where he was talking and he is a great speaker. He knows his stuff. Impressive.

I've heard of it but not read it. Let us know how it was when you finish it.

I've read its very good and he is a very reliable guide.

I just started reading this to try and make sense of the Middle East. It written in a really accessible way and I am enjoying it so far.

Yeah, I've always found the Kurds a weird story. Turkey are probably their biggest enemy but during the Armenian genocide, they were the main mercenaries who did a lot of the killing.

Even in the Iran Iraq war, As I understand it the US was feeding both side sat images. And lets not even get into the Iran Contra affair. And the Kurds in present day. Trump said he was arming the Kurds to fight Iran, but the Kurdistan they want is not all inside Iran.

For sure, the idea of a Kurdistan is something many support. But it should be done by dialogue. Not arming them so they can fight as a proxy.

There's nothing controversial about it at all. Not everything is down to the West. The overthrow of King Faisal II of Iraq was not the West's fault but the subsequent overthrow of Qasim was, which led to Sadam Hussein and the bloody wars that followed. There were also indirect consequences. We only have the Ayatollahs in charge of Iran because the West arranged the overthrow of the democratically elected Mosadegh, replaced him with an unpopular monarchy which led to the communist Tudeh Party. The US were so obsessed with stopping them coming to power, when they realised the Shah was doomed, they effectively let Khomeini take over. I don't blame the West for all the troubles in the Middle East but, most of them, I do.

I agree, Its amazing that your post is controversial on this thread @gealach!

I think it’s obvious that it is multi faceted.

There have been loads of other causes of instability in the ME, rivalries between countries, local armed groups. Corrupt governments, economic problems, interference by Russia (who are not “the west” ….

The west has been a major contributor towards instability. But not the only cause. I don’t think that takes away from the fact that the West needs to prioritise long term development and stability in its ME approach.

Be the change etc (as Gandhi did NOT say).

I've just ordered one on Amazon 😔

Using Amazon ... another bloody thing to feel guilty about.

Business as usual with hair shirts ✔️

This is why I asked the question, what does the proposition that its all our fault lead to? More meddling to put things right? Or no meddling at all? Is that a complete cut off tomorrow? Is it a phased de-meddling? What happens next? Is it business as usual but wearing hair shirts? Or, just perhaps, we might treat the peoples of the ME as grown ups like everyone else we do business with?

🤣

'Things are complex, and many peoples have a part to play in the many difficult situations faced by the people in the ME'

Self indulgent navel gazing!

'Things in the ME are totally our fault! Everything thats happened is due to us! We must do something immediately to help these poor victims! Perhaps some further meddling! But lets do good this time! They need help!'

Not self indulgent navel gazing.

Obviously, I don't agree.