Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

Never again? What a joke!

WTF does that mean?

They don't want to stop them do they. It's the Israeli governments plan to segment and cut off Palestinians from each other in the West Bank. They have already installed 100's of huge gates and roadblocks to prevent Palestinians moving around on their own land. The settlers are ethnically cleansing the West Bank for them - if the government did it themselves they would be heavily criticised by the world. If they turn a blind eye while Israeli settler terrorists carry out their dirty work it gets under the radar.

It's all happening in plain sight. No one in the British government has the balls to call it out. They are all accomplices in this genocide.

Bunch of quivering, spineless yes men.

@Newbutoldfather I acknowledge of course that it's fair to only criticise Israel for settler violence.

The comment did not seem to be made solely in regard to settler violence as reference was made to people defending Israel "over and over again" (which no one had done on the thread in reference to settler violence).

I said, "I think it’s deluded for anyone to think the Israel government is worse than the IRGC even for people who are very anti Israel" and the response was to question whether the IRGC are invading other Countries and carrying out ethnic cleansing (the answer of course is Yes to the former).

"If someone has a world view that thinks Israel is the only bad actor in the Middle East, then they are probably an antisemite" - yes agreed.

The 1975 Israel–South Africa agreement was a military alliance that outlined the two nations’ cooperation on nuclear issues. According to Wikopedia the agreement covered many different areas of defense co-operation at a time when both countries were unable to source weapons and defense technology freely on the international market, primarily because of arms embargoes in place at the time, in South Africa's case due to apartheid.

During the 1950s and 1960s, Israel criticized the racial policies of South Africa. But from 1967 onwards, Israel deepened relations with the apartheid South African regime, and maintained diplomatic relations with the "Bantustans". Israel and South Africa also had a military alliance, including collaboration on nuclear weapons. Up to 1986, Israel also had a vibrant economic relationship but was forced to sanction South Africa in 1987 as a consequence of American pressure.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93South_Africa_agreement

@Twiglets1 ,

‘As I said before, it is fair to criticise Israel. What's not fair is only criticising Israel.’

I think that totally depends on context.

If someone has a world view that thinks Israel is the only bad actor in the Middle East, then they are probably an antisemite.

However, on a thread about settler violence and whether Israel should face international sanctions, how they compare to Hamas or Iran isn’t really relevant.

Iran and Hamas are already under sanction and Israel’s actions (especially as they are in an area not a part of this conflict) need to be scrutinised without reference to what I would term excuses. These settlers are not carrying out pogroms in the West Bank because of Iran or Hamas. They are doing it as they think the bible promised them that land and the Israeli government is giving them a nod and a wink to take it. And most of the international community is looking the other way.

Most of us of Jewish descent are familiar of tales of our antecedents having to leave parts of Europe in pogroms in the early 20th century. How can we look the other way when similar is happening in Israel?!

A lot of the conflict in the Middle East is nuanced, with right and wrong on both sides. But settler violence is not nuanced at all.

"there are zero excuses for settler violence"

No one on this thread is excusing settler violence.

The comparison with Hamas was as a result of someone insisting that it’s “It’s absolutely fair to single Israel out (particularly on threads about the Middle East) for reasons that have been explained many times".

As I said before, it is fair to criticise Israel. What's not fair is only criticising Israel.

Agree, a simple search yields results confirming this relationship. AI summary:

Prior to the 1990s, Israel and apartheid South Africa engaged in covert, systemic public relations and information management strategies designed to rehabilitate South Africa's global image and counter international isolation. This relationship shifted from open criticism of apartheid by Israel in the 1950s and 1960s to a deep, symbiotic strategic alliance starting in the mid-1970s. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
The primary framework for their joint information management was the establishment of the Joint Secretariat for Political and Psychological Warfare in 1975. 1]

The Joint Secretariat (1975)
Constituted as part of a highly classified defense and strategic partnership, this body was created to facilitate "propaganda and psychological warfare". The initiative was tied to a broader $100 million international propaganda campaign funded by Pretoria. It aimed to: 1, 2, 3]

• Counter International Isolation: Neutralize the global anti-apartheid movement and bypass Western arms embargoes. 1, 2, 3]
• Frame Shared Narratives: Position both states as forward outposts of Western democratic civilization surrounded by "barbarism" or hostile adversaries. 1, 2, 3]
• Combat Soviet Expansionism: Leverage Cold War anxieties by framing their respective regional conflicts as vital fronts against global communism. 1, 2]

Shared Rhetorical Frameworks
Declassified documents and historical analyses, such as those detailed in Sasha Polakow-Suransky's The Unspoken Alliance, reveal specific overlapping ideological messaging used by officials from both nations: 1, 2, 3]

• The "Minority Under Siege" Narrative: High-ranking officials openly compared their domestic demographics. For example, Israeli Army Chief of Staff General Rafael Eitan noted that the white minority in South Africa and Israelis faced parallel struggles against majorities seeking territorial control. [, 2]
• Biblical and Historical Justification: Both regimes frequently utilized religious or historical concepts of "pioneer states" reclaiming ancient or promised homelands to justify minority rule and territorial control to conservative Western audiences. 1]
• Legitimization of Segregation: The South African government sought to legitimize its "Bantustan" (pseudo-independent tribal homelands) system by gaining international recognition. While Israel never formally recognized the Bantustans to avoid total international blowback, it maintained active diplomatic, economic, and security infrastructure within them, which Pretoria used to claim its separate development model was viable. 1, 2, 3]

Public Confrontation vs. Secret Cooperation
A central component of their information management strategy was maintaining a public facade of distance to protect Israel's diplomatic standing while maintaining deep logistical ties: 1]

• Public Denials: Both governments strictly classified their military, trade, and nuclear agreements. When allegations of nuclear weapons testing or proliferation surfaced (such as the 1979 Vela Incident), both nations issued rigorous public denials. 1, 3, 4]
• The "Jewish Community" Defense: When forced to explain diplomatic ties with Pretoria to Western audiences, Israeli leaders publicly argued that maintaining an open channel was necessary to protect the large South African Jewish diaspora, masking the extensive underlying military and intelligence trade. [, 2]

I can't find anything to suggest it set up joint units for propoganda to justify apartheid, do you have a source? They sold arms, yeah, but they weren't the only country to do so.

The Israel–South Africa agreement (ISSA) signed in 1975.

Which secret agreements with them to supply weapons and set up joint units for propoganda to justify apartheid were those?

You can't criticise Israel without resorting to Nazi comparisons?

Also re that comment that I was indoctrinated as a child. No I just learnt (learning facts isn''t indoctrination)that Israel was the only country supporting apartheid south Africa and signing secret agreements with them to supply weapons and set up joint units for propoganda to justify apartheid

Here's how you know . If a Palestinian broke into an Israeli settlers house and threw them out the government would take action

We are in agreement @Newbutoldfather that Iran are a lot worse as are their proxies. I'm not quite sure what you mean by is that really the point ... this debate got heated after @MissyB1 made reference to people "whining that’s it’s not fair to only criticise Israel” and I responded that "Well ... objectively it's not fair to only criticise Israel".

Apparently that was a controversial thing to say. But I stand firm in my belief that while it's fair to criticise Israel, it's not fair to only criticise Israel.

I think you probably agree but please correct me if I'm wrong.

A lot of people do see Israel as an Apartheid state. A lot of South Africans certainly see it that way.

I can see the analogy as a part of the population in Israel is kept separate in ‘homelands’ and has very unequal rights.

However, it is a flawed analogy in that it isn’t based on race. The Arabs within Israel proper have (pretty much) the same rights as anyone else, including voting and even becoming MPs. It also ignores a long and complex history.

But there are zero excuses for settler violence, zero, especially condoned by the government. ‘Not as bad as Hamas’, ‘Rough Neighbour’, ‘7/10’ don’t cut it at all. It is racist and these are pogroms. Seeing Jewish people carrying out pogroms is heartbreaking to any liberal Jew who believes the ‘never again’ post-Shoah refrain was meant to be universal.

Who said settlers are just a random group of nasty people? I didn't, and I agree with you that the Israel government ought to be dealing with them and punishing them. They aren't doing so which reflects very badly on them. When all's said and done though, I don't think any country in the Middle East is worse than Iran under the IRGC with the way they treat even their own people.

Israelis were the victims on 7/10/23 including children and babies but they aren't victims now. I don't see them as victims in the war with Hamas but I do think Jewish people in the UK can be victims of antisemitism due to an overseas war.

You don't have to choose and say either Israeli civilians are victims or Palestinians are. They both have been victims at different times. I'm sorry for any innocent person caught up in violence and the Palestinian people are paying a heavy price indeed for what Hamas did/do and what Israeli leaders continue to do.

I wonder where you're from that you have been taught to consider Israel an apartheid state from a very small child. Obviously you don't need to answer but the indoctrination of very small children is not a good look for any country.

But you have been engaging with me when you could have ignored my posts so that was your choice. If you don't want to engage any more then fine, it didn't really need an announcement but ok. Naturally I will continue to feel free to post on any thread I want to.

Where I'm from we've known Israel us an apartheid state since I was a very small child and I'm 51 now. The settler violence is a perfect example of that. You can't argue its only a small extremist groups when the successive governments dont do anything to stop it or rectify it. As a previous poster said it would be very easy for the government to stop it. You cant steal your neighbour's house if you are locked up in prison. Can you imagine if a few English villagers decide they were going to go into Scotland and take over Scottish homes and the government just stood around wringing their hands and letting it happen.

Firstly you know full well that the Israeli government could easily deal with the settlers but choose not to, indeed they encourage and back them. Oooh just like Iran backing terrorist groups eh? So stop pretending settlers are just a random bunch of nasty people.
And talking of genocide, Israel aren’t suffering a genocide - but they aren’t averse to attempting to carry one out are they?!
Honestly with the amount of innocent civilians (many of whom are children) that Israel have killed, and continue to kill every single day, but still they (and you) insist on painting Israel as always the victim 🙄

@Twiglets1 ,

I am a secular Jew and I think we are coming to the point where we (the west) do need to get tough with Israel.

No, Israel aren’t the worst country in that neighbourhood; Iran are a lot worse, as are their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. But is that really the point?!

Israel have become expansionist, demonstrating that they want to hold on to a lot more of Gaza and settle the West Bank, so there will be no possibility of a contiguous Palestine. And the settler violence is deemed by the government as more and more acceptable and even encouraged by some (G’vir, Smotrich and Katz for instance).

It is hard for Jews, especially older ones who remember the Kibbutzim years and when Israel really was a tiny country facing existential threat from foes on all sides. But that’s not the case any more. They are a regional nuclear armed superpower.

But Israel does need to abide by international laws and norms. And be held to account by the Western Word. If synagogues continue to send money to Israel (a far richer country per capita than the UK), then we can hardly complain when people confuse Jews with Zionists (in the sense or pro the Israeli government, come what may).

I know it’s hard to accept that Israel is no longer a liberal democracy governed by the rule of law, but just about every independent study shows them moving in the wrong direction.